Basics of C4 Lighting

[rf9000]

ALL,

 

I wanted to make a post to possibly get some explanations from you all on the basics of Control4 lighting. I thought I had this all worked out in my head but a spoke to an individual today that sort of confused me. Please try to answer as thorough as you can and it is much appreciated as always.

Equipment

1. APD Dimmers  - Connected directly to one load and used for dimming, off/on capabilities

2. Keypad dimmers - Connected directly to one load for dimming, off/on capabilities, and also have extra buttons to  control other APD Dimmers, SW switches, blinds, scenes, etc.

3. SW Switch - Connected directly to one load for on/off capabilities

4. Auxiliary Keypad  - Not connected directly to a load. Used for on/off capabilities. Used in conjunction with a APD Dimmer or Keypad Dimmer

5. Keypad - Not connected directly to any loads. Used to control other APD Dimmers, SW switches, blinds, scenes, etc.

Scenarios

1. Whenever a keypad is used to control other APD Dimmers and SW switches, do those dimmers and switches usually have to be hidden somewhere?

2. Say a Great Room has two entrances. At one entrance the customer wants to locate a Keypad because that room will have to chandeliers that they would like to dim, about 10 can lights they they would like to dim, and motorized blinds that they would like to control. If a keypad dimmer was used, would the dimmer itself be connected to lets say the chandeliers for the one load? Then would the can lights would be connected to a hidden APD Dimmer, that in turn the Keypad Dimmer would "talk" to and control? Or would it be best practice to just place the can light APD dimmer next to the keypad dimmer on the wall? I know that isn't the cleanest if looking to have only one switch there, but it does place a local switch to operate the can lights in the room instead of hiding it somewhere

And if these switches and dimmers are all hidden, where do you recommend hiding them? In a closet or something like that? Does anyone ever get nervous wiring this way? You essentially are not putting a dimmer/switch in the room for a light you want to control. You are hiding it in another room and solely relying on the keypad to "talk" to it. 

3. Same scenario above but say when you are in the kitchen you also want to be able to turn on the chandeliers or the can lights. Would you then use an Auxiliary Keypad that would talk to the keypad in the great room and basically turn on at the last light level setting? Are you then able to dim from the Auxiliary Keypad or is it just an on and off feature? Would you need two Auxiliary keypads in the kitchen then, one for the chandeliers and one for the can lights? Or would it be better just to located two more APD Dimmers there in the kitchen and skip the auxiliary keypads? Either way, do you not wire these direct  like you would in a normal three way situation, rather letting the APD dimmer from the kitchen just "talk" to the keypad in the great room to turn off and on the lights?

Again, do you worry about not wiring the 3 way direct and just relying on C4?

[thegreatheed]

Yes. You have the basics down.

Aux keypad is the closest analogue to 3-way wiring and require physical wiring to the dimmer/switch. But you can remove aux keypads and instead put in configurable keypads for far more customization. They do not have to be hard wired to the dimmer/switch, just have to be powered up by the wiring in the wall.

Configurable keypads + keypad dimmers in most locations will give you the highest level of control and customization.

[SMHarman]

 

 

 

ALL,

 

I wanted to make a post to possibly get some explanations from you all on the basics of Control4 lighting. I thought I had this all worked out in my head but a spoke to an individual today that sort of confused me. Please try to answer as thorough as you can and it is much appreciated as always.

Equipment

1. APD Dimmers  - Connected directly to one load and used for dimming, off/on capabilities

2. Keypad dimmers - Connected directly to one load for dimming, off/on capabilities, and also have extra buttons to  control other APD Dimmers, SW switches, blinds, scenes, etc.

3. SW Switch - Connected directly to one load for on/off capabilities

4. Auxiliary Keypad  - Not connected directly to a load. Used for on/off capabilities. Used in conjunction with a APD Dimmer or Keypad Dimmer

5. Keypad - Not connected directly to any loads. Used to control other APD Dimmers, SW switches, blinds, scenes, etc.

Yep, you got this. This is very correct in a retrofit environment

4 aux keypad. Used on 3 or 4 way switch scenario. Stairs and rooms with multiple entry. Direct rewire.

 

5. Also think that the keypad with some rewiring can replace a aux keypad. Use the power heading there but don't use the traveller wire.

 

 

Scenarios

1. Whenever a keypad is used to control other APD Dimmers and SW switches, do those dimmers and switches usually have to be hidden somewhere?

Nope, the switches can stay exactly where they were before.

Hiding switched is not recommended. In that scenario in a new build consider the panellized lighting.

 

 

2. Say a Great Room has two entrances. At one entrance the customer wants to locate a Keypad because that room will have to chandeliers that they would like to dim, about 10 can lights they they would like to dim, and motorized blinds that they would like to control. If a keypad dimmer was used, would the dimmer itself be connected to lets say the chandeliers for the one load? Then would the can lights would be connected to a hidden APD Dimmer, that in turn the Keypad Dimmer would "talk" to and control? Or would it be best practice to just place the can light APD dimmer next to the keypad dimmer on the wall? I know that isn't the cleanest if looking to have only one switch there, but it does place a local switch to operate the can lights in the room instead of hiding it somewhere

Likely connect a keypad dimmer by one door to the chandelier, a keypad dimmer by the other door to the cans and then program scenes on the buttons on those keypads. Add a blinds button with tap and double tap to set a closed and a set to position on these keypads as well.

 

See attached image.

 

 

 

And if these switches and dimmers are all hidden, where do you recommend hiding them? In a closet or something like that? Does anyone ever get nervous wiring this way? You essentially are not putting a dimmer/switch in the room for a light you want to control. You are hiding it in another room and solely relying on the keypad to "talk" to it. 

Not recommended.

But yes zigbee / keypad / scene based light control is a thing in Control4 and it just works.

 

 

3. Same scenario above but say when you are in the kitchen you also want to be able to turn on the chandeliers or the can lights. Would you then use an Auxiliary Keypad that would talk to the keypad in the great room and basically turn on at the last light level setting? Are you then able to dim from the Auxiliary Keypad or is it just an on and off feature? Would you need two Auxiliary keypads in the kitchen then, one for the chandeliers and one for the can lights? Or would it be better just to located two more APD Dimmers there in the kitchen and skip the auxiliary keypads? Either way, do you not wire these direct  like you would in a normal three way situation, rather letting the APD dimmer from the kitchen just "talk" to the keypad in the great room to turn off and on the lights?

Again, do you worry about not wiring the 3 way direct and just relying on C4?

The aux keypad is only for use in a 3 way switch and keep costs down.

In this scenario the kitchen keypad would activate a light scene in the great room and in the kitchen. Controlling lights in both rooms.

The dimmers in the great room would be controlled by the controller based on commands from the buttons in the kitchen (or on the app, the remote, the buttons in other rooms).

 

Each light group (e.g. the 10 cans) need to be connected to a switch or a dimmer / keypad dimmer. A physical connection but only connected to one of them.

 

 

Virtually you then build lighting scenes that bind to buttons to control what each press does.

 

[crshepard7]

You have the basics down. Have you considered a panelized system? That would be much cleaner than hiding dimmers in closets etc., and more financially practical depending on how many loads you are wanting to control.

[LollerAgent]

Like others have said, I would take a closer look at Panelized lighting since this is a new build.

[RAV]

APD, KPD, SW - correct

Aux keypads are for wired 3 or 4 way control. Where you want a physical way to switch the light. They wire directly to their master sw/dim. Use for stairways at least. A house should be liveable without programming, so for safety on stairs or the like, use a 3 way wired to a APD/KPD/SW. Aux keypads have no LED or backlighting. Cause they use a communication link not 120v.

KC (keypad without load) are software programmed to do whatever. They can be used to fake a 3 way for a room, where one button is programmed to tell the master to turn on, BUT without the controller functioning, then it can't do anything!

When programming KPD, you can set it so a button is physical, meaning, without the processor running, that button will still toggle the light.

Laying it out. Put a KPD by every door/passage way, connect it to the most prime light in the room. If there's 2 entrys to a room, set the other KPD to do the next prime light. Outside doors, get 2 keypads, one for inside one for outside. Stairs, use an AUX on the other side, depending on location it might be a APD or KPD as master.

Now what's left? Typically accent lights, and landscaping and fans. Ceiling fans get a fan controller, if compatible. Bath fans put a switch in the room or, hide. Other accent and landscape you can place at your discretion. Pantry's, coat closets, linen closets are practical, utility rooms for landscape, etc. Try to only have 4 in a hidden location. If you have a lot of accent and landscape than a panelized system should be considered.

I like the top button to be a double height, and do the whole room. The next button down, the physical setup to do the prime light in the room. That way if aliens steal the processor, it's consistent to remember to use the same button on each keypad for the local room lights. And the larger top button, is a target for guests, press the big button for lights.

 

[SMHarman]

Or consider panel and the rs485 cable back to the panel on lights and lv control at light switches.

Then you have a panel control keypad at each critical door and can program the rest.

You can also use motion and ambient light levels for common areas and time of day settings, e.g. time before sunset for exterior.

Also temp sensors can be a control for blinds and ceiling fans.

[rf9000]

8 hours ago, RAV said:

APD, KPD, SW - correct

Aux keypads are for wired 3 or 4 way control. Where you want a physical way to switch the light. They wire directly to their master sw/dim. Use for stairways at least. A house should be liveable without programming, so for safety on stairs or the like, use a 3 way wired to a APD/KPD/SW. Aux keypads have no LED or backlighting. Cause they use a communication link not 120v.

KC (keypad without load) are software programmed to do whatever. They can be used to fake a 3 way for a room, where one button is programmed to tell the master to turn on, BUT without the controller functioning, then it can't do anything!

When programming KPD, you can set it so a button is physical, meaning, without the processor running, that button will still toggle the light.

Laying it out. Put a KPD by every door/passage way, connect it to the most prime light in the room. If there's 2 entrys to a room, set the other KPD to do the next prime light. Outside doors, get 2 keypads, one for inside one for outside. Stairs, use an AUX on the other side, depending on location it might be a APD or KPD as master.

Now what's left? Typically accent lights, and landscaping and fans. Ceiling fans get a fan controller, if compatible. Bath fans put a switch in the room or, hide. Other accent and landscape you can place at your discretion. Pantry's, coat closets, linen closets are practical, utility rooms for landscape, etc. Try to only have 4 in a hidden location. If you have a lot of accent and landscape than a panelized system should be considered.

I like the top button to be a double height, and do the whole room. The next button down, the physical setup to do the prime light in the room. That way if aliens steal the processor, it's consistent to remember to use the same button on each keypad for the local room lights. And the larger top button, is a target for guests, press the big button for lights.

 

Thank you. This was one of the most helpful replies I have ever received. 

[Cyknight]

23 hours ago, SMHarman said:

On 3/3/2020 at 3:01 PM, rf9000 said:

 

And if these switches and dimmers are all hidden, where do you recommend hiding them? In a closet or something like that? Does anyone ever get nervous wiring this way? You essentially are not putting a dimmer/switch in the room for a light you want to control. You are hiding it in another room and solely relying on the keypad to "talk" to it. 

 

Not recommended.

But yes zigbee / keypad / scene based light control is a thing in Control4 and it just works.

Mhh. If you go this way, you can, but pick a closet per FLOOR and wire for panel lighting instead.

[rf9000]

8 hours ago, RAV said:

APD, KPD, SW - correct

Aux keypads are for wired 3 or 4 way control. Where you want a physical way to switch the light. They wire directly to their master sw/dim. Use for stairways at least. A house should be liveable without programming, so for safety on stairs or the like, use a 3 way wired to a APD/KPD/SW. Aux keypads have no LED or backlighting. Cause they use a communication link not 120v.

KC (keypad without load) are software programmed to do whatever. They can be used to fake a 3 way for a room, where one button is programmed to tell the master to turn on, BUT without the controller functioning, then it can't do anything!

When programming KPD, you can set it so a button is physical, meaning, without the processor running, that button will still toggle the light.

Laying it out. Put a KPD by every door/passage way, connect it to the most prime light in the room. If there's 2 entrys to a room, set the other KPD to do the next prime light. Outside doors, get 2 keypads, one for inside one for outside. Stairs, use an AUX on the other side, depending on location it might be a APD or KPD as master.

Now what's left? Typically accent lights, and landscaping and fans. Ceiling fans get a fan controller, if compatible. Bath fans put a switch in the room or, hide. Other accent and landscape you can place at your discretion. Pantry's, coat closets, linen closets are practical, utility rooms for landscape, etc. Try to only have 4 in a hidden location. If you have a lot of accent and landscape than a panelized system should be considered.

I like the top button to be a double height, and do the whole room. The next button down, the physical setup to do the prime light in the room. That way if aliens steal the processor, it's consistent to remember to use the same button on each keypad for the local room lights. And the larger top button, is a target for guests, press the big button for lights.

 

I do have another question for you if you have a moment. I've always wondered how people get around code requirements when wiring C4 auxiliary switches like what you just described above. Code requires that in any room where there is two entrances, that there must be a way to turn on the lights from both entrances. This is so you never have to walk through a dark room. So lets say we had a situation where there was a chandelier in the great room. At one entrance you had a APD wired to the chandelier and at other entrance an auxiliary switch for the 3 way.  This works to abide by code, but only really works if C4 is used in the home forever. Say some day the home sold and someone wanted to just put regular switches in. Then there would be a switch for the chandelier at one entrance and and no switch connected to the load at the other entrance because there was just an auxiliary switch there?

Also, in your scenario above you say to put KPDs everywhere, do you not use many APD dimmers?

[rf9000]

To add to that last post, does code require you to wire for your current situation or does code require you to meet all future situations. For instance, in this great room, say there was one set of lights. And say an APD was used at one entrance and a SW switch at the other entrance. This is of course a very common 3 way situation. Normally the dimmer is wired to the light and then the switch and dimmer are wired together. Is this how it is still recommended to wire within C4? I ask, because technically you would not have to wire inbetween the dimmer and the switch because they can talk to each other wirelessly. But then, would this meet code if you did not do this? I always just think of the future and say some day the new home owner did not want C4 and wanted regular dimmers and switches. They would go to replace this dimmer and switch and realize that the switch wasn't wired to the dimmer and therefore the 3 way would not work. 

[SMHarman]

To add to that last post, does code require you to wire for your current situation or does code require you to meet all future situations. For instance, in this great room, say there was one set of lights. And say an APD was used at one entrance and a SW switch at the other entrance. This is of course a very common 3 way situation. Normally the dimmer is wired to the light and then the switch and dimmer are wired together. Is this how it is still recommended to wire within C4? I ask, because technically you would not have to wire inbetween the dimmer and the switch because they can talk to each other wirelessly. But then, would this meet code if you did not do this? I always just think of the future and say some day the new home owner did not want C4 and wanted regular dimmers and switches. They would go to replace this dimmer and switch and realize that the switch wasn't wired to the dimmer and therefore the 3 way would not work. 

Current situation. If the current owner moves out the leave a CA1 with the lighting program. It will run reliably without patching for almost every.

A full panel solution with the additional panel devices gives a backup without a working controller.

Both meet code requirements.

[Brownbatsbreath]

What country are you in? 
Unless it has recently changed the NEC only requires one switch per room, not for each entrance to a room. The exception being the top and bottom of staircases. 
 

If you’re using aux dimmers, just have them wired as regular 3 ways. Then you have all the options without really compromising on design. 
 

Code doesn’t ultimately say what you have to use as a switch. You can use panelized with low volt keypads and meet code.  Typically if you have a working UL listed solution that turns the lights on and off, you meet code.  I say typically because the local inspector always has the final say and there’s quite a few who don’t understand lighting controls.

[SMHarman]

 I say typically because the local inspector always has the final say and there’s quite a few who don’t understand lighting controls.

Yep. I considered that for NYC.
Also that means baseline programing should be in the system before inspector walk-through so buttons behave as they would expect, not as you promise.

[RAV]

Code says you have to have a WAY to turn on the light..
A centralized system wouldn't be any different, the load is switched at the module, the keypad in the room switches the module.

My recommendation is in places of safety, staircases, IF there was a problem with the processor, a AUX keypad wired to it's master would still function in that event. In a dining room where one keypad dimmer does the chandelier and the other the ceiling lights, either results in light to safely traverse the room.

[RAV]

As to the future and selling a home, I threw out my crystal ball years ago.

There are many lighting systems today that could replace a Control4 without physcial wall intrusion. If you want to wire so that you can go back to manual, you can. You'll endup with a lot more wall clutter and 3ways and such. You would essentially wire for manual, than install Control4, as if it was a retro.

[RAV]

You should wire any AUX switches as if they were manual 3ways. That way you could go manual. AUX still need neutral, ground and a 'traveler' or communication wire from their master. And many times the load is on one side and the feed on the other, the extra wire in the old school wiring way can get the load or feed to the KPD side as needed.

In rooms, primarily I put KPD. If hidden, or a closet or there is already a KPD at a location and it's going to be a 2 gang or similar, then yes, an APD is specd.

[Matt Lowe]

Also need to factor in the new Essential Lighting products. They can offer a low cost option to less critical loads and not make it easier for someone to automate their entire lighting system with out breaking the budget.

what to know

1 led blue only led indicator

switch or forward phase dimmer options

aux keypad for 3 or more way

 

[rf9000]

On 3/6/2020 at 10:42 AM, Matt Lowe said:

Also need to factor in the new Essential Lighting products. They can offer a low cost option to less critical loads and not make it easier for someone to automate their entire lighting system with out breaking the budget.

what to know

1 led blue only led indicator

switch or forward phase dimmer options

aux keypad for 3 or more way

 

I don’t know what this means

[Matt Lowe]

c4 gen 3 wireless lighting has

RGB led indicator for each button

adaptive phase dimmer that is capable of handling more light load types

the aux keypad more closely resembles the essential line where the gen3 aux matches gen 3 style. 

[Matt Lowe]

also forgot the essential lighting does not have the option for engraving, nor a RGB back-light for that engraving of course

[SMHarman]

Also need to factor in the new Essential Lighting products. They can offer a low cost option to less critical loads and not make it easier for someone to automate their entire lighting system with out breaking the budget.
what to know
1 led blue only led indicator
switch or forward phase dimmer options
aux keypad for 3 or more way
 

I don’t know what this means

It means that the price of some of your work may just have come down, if indeed price was a factor.

[rf9000]

On 3/6/2020 at 10:42 AM, Matt Lowe said:

Also need to factor in the new Essential Lighting products. They can offer a low cost option to less critical loads and not make it easier for someone to automate their entire lighting system with out breaking the budget.

what to know

1 led blue only led indicator

switch or forward phase dimmer options

aux keypad for 3 or more way

 

So I just went over all my lighting with my dealer. I'm confused. I'm not confused on the devices themselves or their functions, I'm confused on comments from this forum vs. what my dealer says. I gathered that the general consensus on here was to never hide switches (APDs, SWs). My dealer likes to hide a lot of these. It really makes me nervous because this is DEFINITELY not conventional wiring. For example in the kitchen, we have two entry points and 5 lighting loads plus motorized blinds. At each entry he is placing a KPD, so this technically takes care of two of the loads, the rest of the loads are to be connected to APDs hidden and located back in the pantry all on one wall. Is this the correct way to do this? Do you all wire this way? There are several spots in the house that will house multiple single gain boxes connected to single loads that will be controlled via a KPD. Most on here say to never hide devices? Is this perfectly acceptable to do?

[Matt Lowe]

11 minutes ago, rf9000 said:

So I just went over all my lighting with my dealer. I'm confused. I'm not confused on the devices themselves or their functions, I'm confused on comments from this forum vs. what my dealer says. I gathered that the general consensus on here was to never hide switches (APDs, SWs). My dealer likes to hide a lot of these. It really makes me nervous because this is DEFINITELY not conventional wiring. For example in the kitchen, we have two entry points and 5 lighting loads plus motorized blinds. At each entry he is placing a KPD, so this technically takes care of two of the loads, the rest of the loads are to be connected to APDs hidden and located back in the pantry all on one wall. Is this the correct way to do this? Do you all wire this way? There are several spots in the house that will house multiple single gain boxes connected to single loads that will be controlled via a KPD. Most on here say to never hide devices? Is this perfectly acceptable to do?

I would encourage not to do this having a bunch of zigbee devices in a small enclosed room is bound to have issues. If you do not want the extra devices on the way you would do Panelized lighting. Its totally fine to have a few small panels around in closets. One panel handles 8 loads either dimmer or switched. you do need to run a network cable to them minimally. If you want back up hardwired lighting you would need to run an industry standard panel wire from panel to the keypads in the spaces. Honestly control4 is very reliable atm i personally just use wireless keypads powered off a low voltage transformer in the panel. 

 

If your dealer is suggesting shoving a bunch of wireless mesh products in a small enclosed space this would be a red flag for me.

[SMHarman]

So I just went over all my lighting with my dealer. I'm confused. I'm not confused on the devices themselves or their functions, I'm confused on comments from this forum vs. what my dealer says. I gathered that the general consensus on here was to never hide switches (APDs, SWs). My dealer likes to hide a lot of these. It really makes me nervous because this is DEFINITELY not conventional wiring. For example in the kitchen, we have two entry points and 5 lighting loads plus motorized blinds. At each entry he is placing a KPD, so this technically takes care of two of the loads, the rest of the loads are to be connected to APDs hidden and located back in the pantry all on one wall. Is this the correct way to do this? Do you all wire this way? There are several spots in the house that will house multiple single gain boxes connected to single loads that will be controlled via a KPD. Most on here say to never hide devices? Is this perfectly acceptable to do?

If you are doing this in new build you should do panelized lighting.

 

Cleaner and more reliable and a similar cost.

 

Then at each entry to the kitchen you put a C4-KCB-120

 

Any competent electrician gets the wiring plan. It's easier for them than traditional wiring.

 

HV

Breaker>Panel.

Panel>Load

 

LV

Switch > Panel

 

They terminate it all.

 

Dealer programs it just the same.

 

Google Control4 Panelized Lighting. There are useful PDF available.