Basics of C4 Lighting

[rf9000]

1 hour ago, SMHarman said:

If you are doing this in new build you should do panelized lighting.

 

Cleaner and more reliable and a similar cost.

 

Then at each entry to the kitchen you put a C4-KCB-120

 

Any competent electrician gets the wiring plan. It's easier for them than traditional wiring.

 

HV

Breaker>Panel.

Panel>Load

 

LV

Switch > Panel

 

They terminate it all.

 

Dealer programs it just the same.

 

Google Control4 Panelized Lighting. There are useful PDF available.

 

 

Thanks for the suggestion but we are not doing panelized lighting. We already have most of the switches, dimmers, etc. purchased. So that is out. Just wondering if this is normal practice?

[SMHarman]

Thanks for the suggestion but we are not doing panelized lighting. We already have most of the switches, dimmers, etc. purchased. So that is out. Just wondering if this is normal practice?

Then this is such a backwards project I give up.

Spec
Price
Get supplies
Build.

You are at step three asking about step one.

It's a practice. Not a good one.

[rf9000]

Just now, SMHarman said:

Then this is such a backwards project I give up.

Spec
Price
Get supplies
Build.

You are at step three asking about step one.

It's a practice. Not a good one.

Sorry, but you are wrong. We have been buying switches and dimmers preparing for the upcoming install, we knew we would need a bunch and what we don’t have we will buy from the dealer, so it’s not backwards. Maybe to you it is because you want everything to be bought from you if you are a dealer, I don’t know. My dealer is working with me. They are not specing to what I already have, but rather to what they feel I need just like any other new construction. But anyways, panelized lighting is not that common with C4 and definitely is not where I’m from. So I’m asking some simple questions and looking for constructive opinions. If you don’t have a useful opinion I ask that you please just don’t respond. Thanks

[rf9000]

1 minute ago, rf9000 said:

Sorry, but you are wrong. We have been buying switches and dimmers preparing for the upcoming install, we knew we would need a bunch and what we don’t have we will buy from the dealer, so it’s not backwards. Maybe to you it is because you want everything to be bought from you if you are a dealer, I don’t know. My dealer is working with me. They are not specing to what I already have, but rather to what they feel I need just like any other new construction. But anyways, panelized lighting is not that common with C4 and definitely is not where I’m from. So I’m asking some simple questions and looking for constructive opinions. If you don’t have a useful opinion I ask that you please just don’t respond. Thanks

To add, on every C4 install where someone has multiple loads in a room,  the suggestion isn’t always  to do panelized. So all I’m asking is what y’all do in these situations when you don’t want five switches on the wall. I told my dealer I have to get over the uneasiness of wiring this way (because it’s not normal wiring), but he says they do it all the time. For instance in the guest bedroom there are can lights and a chandelier. The KPD in the room controls the cans, the APD for the chandelier is in a closet in another room.  That is just crazy to me, but they say it’s done all the time. Makes me feel uneasy but maybe I just got to get over it?

[SMHarman]

To add, on every C4 install where someone has multiple loads in a room,  the suggestion isn’t always  to do panelized. So all I’m asking is what y’all do in these situations when you don’t want five switches on the wall. I told my dealer I have to get over the uneasiness of wiring this way (because it’s not normal wiring), but he says they do it all the time. For instance in the guest bedroom there are can lights and a chandelier. The KPD in the room controls the cans, the APD for the chandelier is in a closet in another room.  That is just crazy to me, but they say it’s done all the time. Makes me feel uneasy but maybe I just got to get over it?

No the suggestion isn't always to do that but in a new build which I believe you are then it is optimal.

To that extent if you are not comfortable with this, consider hybrid.

As was suggested earlier. Pick a closet on each floor put a 2 gang panel box in it, control 8 or 16 additional loads a floor from that with programming. No extra light switches.

[SMHarman]

Mhh. If you go this way, you can, but pick a closet per FLOOR and wire for panel lighting instead.

Like this

[rf9000]

1 hour ago, SMHarman said:

No the suggestion isn't always to do that but in a new build which I believe you are then it is optimal.

To that extent if you are not comfortable with this, consider hybrid.

As was suggested earlier. Pick a closet on each floor put a 2 gang panel box in it, control 8 or 16 additional loads a floor from that with programming. No extra light switches.

Thanks for suggestions, but lets  just say that this is a normal new construction install that doesn’t do panel lighting. These scenarios I have laid out are very common scenarios that are encountered on almost every install and most don’t do paneled lighting. So what is normally done to keep wall switches to a minimum? Or does nobody do this and most just have a lot of double and triple gangs?

[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, rf9000 said:

 that doesn’t do panel lighting.

That would be your job no?

[Cyknight]

3 hours ago, rf9000 said:

(because it’s not normal wiring),

By who's standard?

 

Look, you can put all those dimmers in a closet. Sure, go ahead. But if you're starting to have weird lighting control issues, know that the first thing to do is replace them with a panel.

 

3 hours ago, rf9000 said:

but he says they do it all the time. For instance in the guest bedroom there are can lights and a chandelier. The KPD in the room controls the cans, the APD for the chandelier is in a closet in another room.  That is just crazy to me, but they say it’s done all the time. Makes me feel uneasy but maybe I just got to get over it?

THAT scenario is certainly possible - there's a big difference in hiding A dimmer in a different location, it's a whole other scenario to hide 20 lights in a closet together.

 

Possible? Sure. Is it the best way of doing it? Absolutely not. Would I suggest it? Well no, but that should have been clear already.

Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD.

[rf9000]

8 hours ago, Cyknight said:

By who's standard?

 

Look, you can put all those dimmers in a closet. Sure, go ahead. But if you're starting to have weird lighting control issues, know that the first thing to do is replace them with a panel.

 

THAT scenario is certainly possible - there's a big difference in hiding A dimmer in a different location, it's a whole other scenario to hide 20 lights in a closet together.

 

Possible? Sure. Is it the best way of doing it? Absolutely not. Would I suggest it? Well no, but that should have been clear already.

Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD.

I'm still confused. So is this acceptable or not? There are three spots where we are locating multiple "hidden" switches/dimmers. Most of these are to control secondary loads in a room where the primary load is a controlled by a KPD. So my question really is, would it be better to just have the KPD on the wall? Then have the other dimmers and switches that control loads in the same room hidden and then programmed into the KPD? Or would it be better to have a bit more clutter and put those other dimmers and switches physically in that  room? I say I'm confused, because these types of scenarios I feel come in to play on almost every C4 install. All the response so far say do panelized? I can't believe that this is the only suggestion and everyone does panelized when they are hiding several control devices.

[lippavisual]

You'll be fine with stashing 2-4 dimmers/switches elsewhere.  This is the same as having a 4 gang box.  The zigbee problems come when you have a cluster of 6,7,8 or more of them all stacked up.  The devices are too close to each other for smooth communication. 

[RAV]

It's acceptable to many. Others, as stated say no, that's panelized. You have to decide if it's acceptable to you.

The trouble comes when there are more than a "few" hidden switches in the same location. A Zigbee storm can occur with each switch repeating signals to the others. There is no official recommendation on how many a "few" is. These posts usually pop up when there's dozens together in one closet. Personally, I try to keep it around 4. Totally not uncommon to have 4 gang boxes around, especially in retrofits.

So you have to decide if you're OK with it, providing there are only a few in each hidden area. Otherwise you'll be doing two gangs rather than single keypad dimmers.

[rf9000]

54 minutes ago, RAV said:

It's acceptable to many. Others, as stated say no, that's panelized. You have to decide if it's acceptable to you.

The trouble comes when there are more than a "few" hidden switches in the same location. A Zigbee storm can occur with each switch repeating signals to the others. There is no official recommendation on how many a "few" is. These posts usually pop up when there's dozens together in one closet. Personally, I try to keep it around 4. Totally not uncommon to have 4 gang boxes around, especially in retrofits.

So you have to decide if you're OK with it, providing there are only a few in each hidden area. Otherwise you'll be doing two gangs rather than single keypad dimmers.

Yeah. The most in one location is 9, but they would all be separated into single gang boxes. We could space them apart. Do you suggest that or should we separate into two locations?

[Matt Lowe]

1 hour ago, rf9000 said:

Yeah. The most in one location is 9, but they would all be separated into single gang boxes. We could space them apart. Do you suggest that or should we separate into two locations?

as many have stated panel would be best if you going to have 5 or more loads in a space. if you can space them all out 15ft apart each then you'll be golden. 

I would rethink and use different walls and do multiple 2 or 3 gang boxes on different walls in a room. 

And as stated if you do this and stick 6 or more in a closet and you start having zigbee issues control4 will tell you to replace it with a panel. 

If you bought the lighting already resell to ebay or see if your dealer will credit you for returns. 

good luck!

[SMHarman]

Yeah. The most in one location is 9, but they would all be separated into single gang boxes. We could space them apart. Do you suggest that or should we separate into two locations?

So you say you need to buy more switches from the dealer why are you fundamentaly opposed to buying an 8 pack dimmer and 2 unit box for that location.

Similar price and the right tool for the job.

[SMHarman]

I'm still confused. So is this acceptable or not? There are three spots where we are locating multiple "hidden" switches/dimmers. Most of these are to control secondary loads in a room where the primary load is a controlled by a KPD. So my question really is, would it be better to just have the KPD on the wall? Then have the other dimmers and switches that control loads in the same room hidden and then programmed into the KPD? Or would it be better to have a bit more clutter and put those other dimmers and switches physically in that  room? I say I'm confused, because these types of scenarios I feel come in to play on almost every C4 install. All the response so far say do panelized? I can't believe that this is the only suggestion and everyone does panelized when they are hiding several control devices.

Your confusion is because you are conflating retrofit and new build. Further the original post didn't indicate where you had already done some shopping wo were adding additional constraints.

You are in a new build situation and as such got suggestions of what to do in new build to reduce wall warts.

Then you said but I bought lots of used lights and don't want to panel. But I have not bought all of them.

So, yes it is acceptable up to a 4 gang because that is what you would have in a retrofit.

Beyond that if you get problems Control4 will tell you and your dealer that you picked the wrong tool for the job. Your dealer may be OK with this but also consider the usability of a pantry wall with 9 switches evenly spaced on it. And how shelving etc will go there. A new dealer may look at it and say why? Your architect drawing the electricians wiring diagram may also say why.

Don't be weird is often a statement made here. Pulling cable to a TV location in a new build. Pull a coax along with the cat and HDMI so if the second owner wants a cable box by the TV they can.

What you are doing falls into the weird. New owner will have to have C4 lights and can't go back to dumb lights else they will be in the kitchen pantry turning the counter lights on.

[RAV]

3 hours ago, rf9000 said:

Yeah. The most in one location is 9, but they would all be separated into single gang boxes. We could space them apart. Do you suggest that or should we separate into two locations?

9 is more than 4, so no I would not.

It has nothing to do with if they are in 4 single boxes, vs 1 quad box. It's proximity to each other and other nearby devices.
 

[Cyknight]

6 hours ago, rf9000 said:

All the response so far say do panelized? I can't believe that this is the only suggestion and everyone does panelized when they are hiding several control devices.

You mean you can't believe you can't get the answer you want?

I know that sounds harsh, but I mean....

If you've got more than 4 devices that go into a single closet, just get panelized lighting. Even if you have 4, and you're doing new construction, make it 8 or 16 somewhere else...and put in a panel.

Even 4 in a single gang isn't ideal - but it's manageable. You're doing a new build, do it the proper way if your goal is to declutter.

 

That may not be the answer you want - but it's the RIGHT answer.

 

[rf9000]

21 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

You mean you can't believe you can't get the answer you want?

I know that sounds harsh, but I mean....

If you've got more than 4 devices that go into a single closet, just get panelized lighting. Even if you have 4, and you're doing new construction, make it 8 or 16 somewhere else...and put in a panel.

Even 4 in a single gang isn't ideal - but it's manageable. You're doing a new build, do it the proper way if your goal is to declutter.

 

That may not be the answer you want - but it's the RIGHT answer.

 

I don't want to do panelized lighting though. I have been trying to say this. My post wasn't asking if I should do regular C4 lighting vs. panelized. I asked if hiding switches is right to do compared to physically placing them in the room. Do you see where I'm coming from? This scenario, I would think, happens in 90% of the C4 installs. Someone  that wants to "declutter", I feel would be a pretty common scenario. Is the suggestion to every one these installs to do panelized lighting or your doing something wrong? Man, if that is the case, C4 must sell 100x the panelized lighting systems compared to the individual switches/dimmers? All in all, panelized lighting will cost me 2x to 3x the cost, Have already talked to my electrician about it. I don't know if anyone is considering that aspect too as a reason not to do panelized. When I'm already spending a ton of money on this, I don't want to multiply that by 3. I know some will say that panelized is same price, but it just isn't. For what C4 charges for the panelized items, plus all the dimmers, switches, keypads, its not less money than what you may save on some wire.

[SMHarman]

I don't want to do panelized lighting though. I have been trying to say this. My post wasn't asking if I should do regular C4 lighting vs. panelized. I asked if hiding switches is right to do compared to physically placing them in the room. Do you see where I'm coming from? This scenario, I would think, happens in 90% of the C4 installs. Someone  that wants to "declutter", I feel would be a pretty common scenario. Is the suggestion to every one these installs to do panelized lighting or your doing something wrong? Man, if that is the case, C4 must sell 100x the panelized lighting systems compared to the individual switches/dimmers? All in all, panelized lighting will cost me 2x to 3x the cost, Have already talked to my electrician about it. I don't know if anyone is considering that aspect too as a reason not to do panelized. When I'm already spending a ton of money on this, I don't want to multiply that by 3. I know some will say that panelized is same price, but it just isn't. For what C4 charges for the panelized items, plus all the dimmers, switches, keypads, its not less money than what you may save on some wire.

Nope, 90% of the time, pulling that number out of my ass, the install is a retrofit.

 

In that case wiring is not touched structurally but switches are replaced in situ.

 

The other 10% are new build / major Reno when the walls are open etc.

 

In those if yiu wanted to hide a couple of switches in the pantry then fine, but as you are taking 8+ a reputable dealer for reducing electricians cost and wiring complexity and reducing dealer time and complexity would go hybrid and panel.

 

If you want to build the magical wall of light switches and it doesn't work as designed then change your user name before you come back to ask for guidance on how to make it work. But then again the guidance is in posts 36 and 37 above. Use a panel.

 

If yiu don't and your Sr260 is misbehaving it could well be due to this wall of switches.

[tdougray]

Unfortunately @rf9000 The answers being given to you are all pretty much the same and I haven;t read anything else to support what you are trying to do. I know its really not what you want to hear but sometimes we all have to accept that what we wanted to happen doesn't always represent good practice. Also believe this thread is going round in circles.

[rf9000]

1 minute ago, tdougray said:

Unfortunately @rf9000 The answers being given to you are all pretty much the same and I haven;t read anything else to support what you are trying to do. I know its really not what you want to hear but sometimes we all have to accept that what we wanted to happen doesn't always represent good practice. Also believe this thread is going round in circles.

Yeah me too. Problem is my dealer does it this way all the time and they don't have any issues. I know a lot of other dealers do too. Was just trying to get opinions on if this was ok to do or should I clutter up the walls and locate the switches/dimmers physically in the same room. I brought my hesitation to the attention of my dealer and they say its done all the time. Was just jumping on here to get options to ease my concerns, thats all.

[tdougray]

7 minutes ago, rf9000 said:

Was just jumping on here to get options to ease my concerns, thats all.

Well that went well 

[SMHarman]

I suppose the question to the dealer is why do they do that, not put on an 8 pack dimmer in a panel.

My electrician loved wiring for panelized.

"you mean I just pull each load into this panel and into the block and the device in the middle will connect the switch to the load."

Yep.

[chopedogg88]

Because it's more expensive to buy a panel and modules vs. Hiding a handful of dimmers where necessary. Also many electricians have no idea how to wire a panelized system.

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