Mesh Wifi Options

[lippavisual]

The benefit of ruckus is not only fast/quick setup using a phone app to get running, but it also runs a true WLAN controller, whether virtual using Unleashed or hardware using Zonedirector.

Unleashed works with up to 25 APs.  After that, a Zonesirector is required.

This is specifically beneficial for businesses or homes that use Apple products, which tend to be very sticky clients on WiFi.  Meaning, they hold on to the last AP seen as long as it can, even if you’re closer to a stronger AP signal.

The controller can force the clients to roam appropriately, which is key for WiFi calling, VoIP setups, etc.

Most of my jobs are commercial based, so they tend to have high density and obviously more APs than what a home would have.

I dont think I’ve ever installed more than 4 Ruckus APs in a residential project.  Mostly just 2 on opposite sides of the home on the highest floor.  Basements and outdoors typically get coverage as well, but would be beneficial with their own AP.

 

[Cyknight]

18 hours ago, ejn1 said:

Fair enough but those same homes probably ok with 2 Unifi WAPs.   I have had challenges adopting devices that were previously managed by another controller or used and not reset properly.  The reset process for WAPs is a little more than the 5 second hold of the reset button and trips some folks up but if reset properly or brand new then I havent had an issue.   Just have the controller on latest firmware and rest of system up to date and a new WAP has never given me an adoption problem.   Point noted though and agree the comparison is never that simple.

Uhuh, yet I had to setup 2 APs three days, and sure enough, had to manually update their firmware. Oh and 2 isn't covering so they're getting 2 more

And yes all brand new.

 

Note that I'm NOT 'discouraging' unifi setups here - if nothing else, once set it runs smooth, which is what matters. I can't 'encourage' them either, just because if there ARE issues that may be related to networking......

 

[ejn1]

11 hours ago, lippavisual said:

The benefit of ruckus is not only fast/quick setup using a phone app to get running, but it also runs a true WLAN controller, whether virtual using Unleashed or hardware using Zonedirector.

Unleashed works with up to 25 APs.  After that, a Zonesirector is required.

This is specifically beneficial for businesses or homes that use Apple products, which tend to be very sticky clients on WiFi.  Meaning, they hold on to the last AP seen as long as it can, even if you’re closer to a stronger AP signal.

The controller can force the clients to roam appropriately, which is key for WiFi calling, VoIP setups, etc.

Most of my jobs are commercial based, so they tend to have high density and obviously more APs than what a home would have.

I dont think I’ve ever installed more than 4 Ruckus APs in a residential project.  Mostly just 2 on opposite sides of the home on the highest floor.  Basements and outdoors typically get coverage as well, but would be beneficial with their own AP.

 

Thanks,  as said the Ruckus WAPs look like tanks.  Literally    Your description of the Ruckus WAP controller sounds similar to what the Unifi Controller does as far as I'm aware....  Is there anything difference to note?   Seems like the main difference is their claimed beam technology to pinpoint the client and target a more focused signal.   In general it appears that put more emphasis on their 2G antennas in their WAP line vs Unifi.  Maybe that's where the money is going. 

[ejn1]

6 hours ago, Cyknight said:

 

Note that I'm NOT 'discouraging' unifi setups here - if nothing else, once set it runs smooth, which is what matters. I can't 'encourage' them either, just because if there ARE issues that may be related to networking......

 

I know you have to tow the party line on who you can "officially" recommend or encourage  

[OceanDad]

I've had Unifi, Araknis and Ruckus in my own home.  Ruckus blew the other two away.

[ejn1]

30 minutes ago, OceanDad said:

I've had Unifi, Araknis and Ruckus in my own home.  Ruckus blew the other two away.

Out of curiosity, which Unifi and Ruckus WAPs were you comparing?    I may give the R750 a try to see what all the hype is about

[OceanDad]

2x Unifi AC-PRO.  Switched out for Ruckus 710 and 610.  Also had 2x Araknis 700 previously.  It's not even a close comparison, Ruckus just works.  No dead spots, blazing speeds, great handoff, easy setup.  Not cheap, but these days, wi-fi at home has become something worth really spending for.  We have 300/300 fiber, and we get most of that anywhere in the house over the wi-fi on any device that's reasonably modern.

The 750 is a step up, but really only if you have a lot of simultaneous traffic.  Offices with 100 people joining/leaving continuously for example.

[navman]

Any recent reviews or feedback on performance of the Pakedge Wave 2 4X4 AP's?

[ejn1]

18 minutes ago, OceanDad said:

2x Unifi AC-PRO.  Switched out for Ruckus 710 and 610.  Also had 2x Araknis 700 previously.  It's not even a close comparison, Ruckus just works.  No dead spots, blazing speeds, great handoff, easy setup.  Not cheap, but these days, wi-fi at home has become something worth really spending for.  We have 300/300 fiber, and we get most of that anywhere in the house over the wi-fi on any device that's reasonably modern.

The 750 is a step up, but really only if you have a lot of simultaneous traffic.  Offices with 100 people joining/leaving continuously for example.

Thanks for sharing.  I have Unifi HD WAPs and honestly have not experienced the issues you described but I like to try new stuff so might try the Ruckus in my other place.    I have had the AC-Pros a couple of years ago and the new models (HD, Nano, XG) are way ahead of them performance wise but also acknowledge that Ruckus may be more robust on the WAP side with their higher end models (just not sure worth the money more robust).    I have 1G/1G fiber and max wifi on newer devices in the 300-400 range unless on a PC with a sophisticated PCI-e card which I have gotten closer to 1G .  For you to get roughly 100% of your ISP speed on most devices throughout the house is impressive.    So many variables at play with Wifi that not easy to take one home setup and just assume its the same scenario elsewhere.

[JR2]

On 9/27/2020 at 2:19 PM, Cyknight said:

I can't COUNT the number of times I've had to manually update firmware on Unifi APs to get them to adopt properly. Changes a 3 minute job into an hour job.

+2  Same issue with me more than once.  Installed a new (G2) controller with forced firmware update. The latest update broke communication with my wifi Intesis hvac interfaces.

[RAV]

It's about vendor support.

Sometimes you need to pick up a phone, confirm a problem, and have another unit already on it's way.
Versus, a tech spending time diagnosing, order a replacement, and then dealer handling eating or getting the old RMA, and then having a b-stock in inventory.
Dealers choose the vendor based on their provided support, just like clients do.

It's about business models.

Ubiquity has to be sold and explained as a value add line. Doesn't take much effort to see costs online.
So you're pitching your knowledge to setup and support it into the hardware costs?
Do you have three line items per: device, setup/overhead/profit/support whatever you want to call it and installation? Often I see the first two rolled together, than the client feels overpaying, it's on Amazon for $x, or do you just lump it all as one as system? People like to know what they're paying for, seems an odd sales model. Maybe I'm old school AV.

[RAV]

On 9/26/2020 at 5:40 PM, navman said:

I want to maintain control of my network, My dealer has agreed to handover the network to me after a certain period of stability., does that sound fair?

Sure that's fair. Establish the why with your dealer and frankly yourself. Do you want to tinker and do upgrades and such, or just not beholden to a dealer? Both are fair reasons.

Dealers are hesitant to hand over access, because we've been there done that. "It's not working! Come now." Well somebody went and .... Same as Control4, if we control access, we control some sense of stability. Give up too much, and then it's "this stuff sucks".

[lippavisual]

16 hours ago, ejn1 said:

Thanks,  as said the Ruckus WAPs look like tanks.  Literally    Your description of the Ruckus WAP controller sounds similar to what the Unifi Controller does as far as I'm aware....  Is there anything difference to note?   Seems like the main difference is their claimed beam technology to pinpoint the client and target a more focused signal.   In general it appears that put more emphasis on their 2G antennas in their WAP line vs Unifi.  Maybe that's where the money is going. 

UniFi controller is not the same...not in the least.

[Cyknight]

18 hours ago, ejn1 said:

I know you have to tow the party line on who you can "officially" recommend or encourage  

No not the case at all - I literally mean I cannot encourage Unifi because you and your dealer are at a risk of being told to rip it out before proceeding. You're free to take that risk, but that doesn't mean I think it's a good idea.

 

[ejn1]

14 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

No not the case at all - I literally mean I cannot encourage Unifi because you and your dealer are at a risk of being told to rip it out before proceeding. You're free to take that risk, but that doesn't mean I think it's a good idea.

 

Got it.  If it came to that strange scenario,  might have to rip out the C4 instead....  not sure that is a sensible business model for C4 to pursue.   I think this thread hit the main points early.  If you need a lot of support,  get what the dealer is comfortable with and write the check.  If you don’t need that level of support or you like control and flexibility then there are more options to pursue and everyone has a strong opinion on brand preferences that you have to sift through.

[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, ejn1 said:

not sure that is a sensible business model for C4 to pursue

? What, not support a brand of equipment that they have on the 'do not use list'?

As opposed to saying, do not use this equipment, we know there are issues, then spend hours on networking issues with their support (and possibly come to the conclusion that you need to replace said items? -oh and all this is not bringing C4 any money, and likely your dealer isn't being paid for it, and in the end YOU still paid for gear that you can't use)?

Guess we have a different view of sensible.

[ejn1]

37 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

? What, not support a brand of equipment that they have on the 'do not use list'?

As opposed to saying, do not use this equipment, we know there are issues, then spend hours on networking issues with their support (and possibly come to the conclusion that you need to replace said items? -oh and all this is not bringing C4 any money, and likely your dealer isn't being paid for it, and in the end YOU still paid for gear that you can't use)?

Guess we have a different view of sensible.

Understand the point.   My comment was if a customer invests in networking solutions that have worked with C4 and then C4 starts to mandate certain equipment either directly or indirectly through "approved lists"  (also with biased interest as they sell networking equipment) this may rub people the wrong way.   Lots of folks (as you have said) use Unifi with C4,  I think it's a bit of unsubstantiated (or grossly over emphasized) fear mongering that happens and seems to come up from time to time.   If at some point there is a "real" reason that systems cant coexist then customers would have to make the hard choice.   Seems sensible to me but ok to have different views, it is a forum after all  

[Cyknight]

2 minutes ago, ejn1 said:

Understand the point.   My comment was if a customer invests in networking solutions that have worked with C4 and then C4 starts to mandate certain equipment either directly or indirectly through "approved lists"  (also with biased interest as they sell networking equipment) this may rub people the wrong way.   Lots of folks (as you have said) use Unifi with C4,  I think it's a bit of unsubstantiated (or grossly over emphasized) fear mongering that happens and seems to come up from time to time.   If at some point there is a "real" reason that systems cant coexist then customers would have to make the hard choice.   Seems sensible to me but ok to have different views, it is a forum after all  

They don't have an 'approved' list. They have always and continue to assist in any C4 system, and indeed on networking setup, regardless of networking setup. UNLESS ITS BEEN TESTED AND KNOWN TO HAVE ISSUES -  if there are clear indications there's a network problem. I'd say that's MORE than sensible and reasonable. Heck in reality, they'll try to help anyway.

 

Their list of do not use is not all that long, especially for more 'pro' gear.  Frankly it's Ubiquiti on that list on top of a sporadic item here or there.

It's been there for a loooooooooong time, and the reason has been out and about for quite some time as well.
 

Now, I don't disagree that the impact SEEMS to be limited, I already sated I have a handful of systems running it and I've not come across an issue. BUT I have seen a good amount of others saying they had issues - and C4 has clearly stated that they have had numerous support calls on them.

SO as a dealer OR as a person, I CANNOT recommend them as a blanket option.

 

 SO - I guess we agree - it would be silly to invest in a networking solution that is known to have issues with C4 until such a time as Ubiquiti supporting the proper networking standards.

[mstafford388]

8 minutes ago, ejn1 said:

Understand the point.   My comment was if a customer invests in networking solutions that have worked with C4 and then C4 starts to mandate certain equipment either directly or indirectly through "approved lists"  (also with biased interest as they sell networking equipment) this may rub people the wrong way.   Lots of folks (as you have said) use Unifi with C4,  I think it's a bit of unsubstantiated (or grossly over emphasized) fear mongering that happens and seems to come up from time to time.   If at some point there is a "real" reason that systems cant coexist then customers would have to make the hard choice.   Seems sensible to me but ok to have different views, it is a forum after all  

Nobody is mandating anything.  You can literally use whatever network gear you want and the Control4 police will never hunt you down.  They are just saying they are choosing not to support certain gear, which I'm also all for.  I don't want my guys calling into C4 tech support and having to wait an hour because their support guys are busy helping some dealer who can't get support from (insert network company).  To be painfully honest, 90% of the network gear on C4's do not use list will absolutely work no problem if configured correctly.  The issue is dealers as a whole do a pretty crappy job with networking in general, although that has improved over the past few years.  At the end of the day though the end user will be saying "Control4 doesn't work", not "my dealers doesn't understand multicasting configuration on a ubiquity router". 

[ejn1]

13 minutes ago, mstafford388 said:

Nobody is mandating anything.  You can literally use whatever network gear you want and the Control4 police will never hunt you down.  They are just saying they are choosing not to support certain gear, which I'm also all for.  I don't want my guys calling into C4 tech support and having to wait an hour because their support guys are busy helping some dealer who can't get support from (insert network company).  To be painfully honest, 90% of the network gear on C4's do not use list will absolutely work no problem if configured correctly.  The issue is dealers as a whole do a pretty crappy job with networking in general, although that has improved over the past few years.  At the end of the day though the end user will be saying "Control4 doesn't work", not "my dealers doesn't understand multicasting configuration on a ubiquity router". 

Who said they were mandating?   My point was in response to above that if they did,   I don’t think that would be a good business model to pursue.

[Cyknight]

21 minutes ago, ejn1 said:

Who said they were mandating?   My point was in response to above that if they did,   I don’t think that would be a good business model to pursue.

You did, basically. At least your post implied that you think they might.

[ejn1]

1 hour ago, Cyknight said:

You did, basically. At least your post implied that you think they might.

Not interpreted correctly.  You made the inference/comment that me or my dealer could be forced to rip out gear that was on a do not use list after a long string of buyer beware comments on Unifi including the now infamous and often used multicast warning .    I’m just saying that approach nor fear mongering is a solid business model.   Let the customer and dealer figure it out.   All I can say is it’s worked for me and I believe several dealers have actually said in this forum that it’s their preferred networking go to option.  Tons of networking issues are incorrectly root caused as hardware as Matt said above which I agree. All good.  

[Cyknight]

2 hours ago, ejn1 said:

Let the customer and dealer figure it out.

Sure thing - but again, you and your dealer are taking that risk. You're free to do so.

But you keep going in circles - the reality is that there HAVE been issues, there HAVE been identified shortcomings - that you are hard-on for Ubiquiti is fine - but that doesn't change things.

 

2 hours ago, ejn1 said:

the now infamous and often used multicast warning

Yep, it's often used because it's a required component. That and PIM for cross-lan traffic.

Both are commonly supported items in most brands and devices.

2 hours ago, ejn1 said:

Tons of networking issues are incorrectly root caused as hardware as Matt said above which I agree

yeah but,

 

3 hours ago, mstafford388 said:

At the end of the day though the end user will be saying "Control4 doesn't work", not "my dealers doesn't understand multicasting configuration on a ubiquity router". 

and

3 hours ago, mstafford388 said:

They are just saying they are choosing not to support certain gear, which I'm also all for.don't want my guys calling into C4 tech support and having to wait an hour because their support guys are busy helping some dealer who can't get support from (insert network company).

 

And that is sort of the whole point

 

[ejn1]

1 minute ago, Cyknight said:

Sure thing - but again, you and your dealer are taking that risk. You're free to do so.

But you keep going in circles - the reality is that there HAVE been issues, there HAVE been identified shortcomings - that you are hard-on for Ubiquiti is fine - but that doesn't change things.

Your replies are very cinematic but not enough caps this time   I'm not going in circles, I'm saying the retreaded issues that you are bringing up are bunch of BS and if it works on folks to steer them to better revenue models for you like Pakedge or Araknis then go for it.  You obviously have the hard on against Ubiquiti and thats fine.   They obviously stung you on a few jobs where you were forced to be there for more than 3 minutes.   No judgement made and to the contrary,  I complimented the other gear (and don't talk them down) and also agreed on some of your negatives.  No money made here from me on networking recommendations, rest assured! 

I will say this though,  you have tons of great advice and recommendations and I for one appreciate it!   Save for the minor differences of opinion above

 

[Cyknight]

6 minutes ago, ejn1 said:

to steer them to better revenue models for you like Pakedge or Araknis then go for it

Please do enlighten me on how I benefit from NOT recommending Ubiquiti on these forums?

Besides, I don't 'benefit' directly from any sales to begin with, so I have nothing to benefit from recommending anything at all.

9 minutes ago, ejn1 said:

You obviously have the hard on against Ubiquiti and thats fine.

Not really.

10 minutes ago, ejn1 said:

They obviously stung you on a few jobs where you were forced to be there for more than 3 minutes

If you want to go down this sort of road, by all means - sad though.

12 minutes ago, ejn1 said:

you are bringing up are bunch of BS

Oh? Funny, pretty sure I was bringing up simple fact.