Generac generator install

[eggzlot]

1 minute ago, SMHarman said:

In this day, why a generator not Tesla Powerwall or similar. 

Zero maintenance, no startup pause or power flicker. 

Often big rebates from tax breaks and the utilities having access for brownouts.

My $30k solar and Powerwall has a 5 year ROI.

I signed up a while ago for the Tesla solar roof.  Still not in my area.  And ~2 years ago we replaced the roof as ours was about 35 years old.  So would hate to rip off the roof again though again the Tesla solar panels are not available.  

This may not be "PC" but the currently available solar panels are just ugly.  Not really looking to put those on our roof.   If the Tesla roof shingles were available locally to me it would have been a big consideration.  I try to be green where possible but not looking to spend $30k on the panels currently available.  Also its good you are getting a 5 year ROI - about 3 years ago before our big renovation project we did look at Solar and I could swear the #s were closer to 10-15 year to break even on the savings and who knows where we will be living in 15 years.

Not sure about the tax breaks today but ~3 years ago it did not move the needle.

[zaphod]

2 hours ago, SMHarman said:

In this day, why a generator not Tesla Powerwall or similar. 

Zero maintenance, no startup pause or power flicker. 

Often big rebates from tax breaks and the utilities having access for brownouts.

My $30k solar and Powerwall has a 5 year ROI.

How long will the Powerwall power your entire house?  I believe they can put out 5kW of continuous power and each unit is 13.5kWh.  I think furnaces use around 500W so assuming that it is only powering your furnace then you should be good for 24 hours on one Powerwall.  But it will likely be powering more than your furnace.

The main reason that I would want a generator is if an ice storm knocked down power lines in the winter. This happened in 2013 here in Toronto.  Luckily I was not without power for too long - 24 hours off then 12 hours on, then another 12 hours off.  My next door neighbour was without power for six days - he was finally able to get a portable generator for his furnace four hours before power came back. When he rebuilt his house two years ago he put in a Generac.

FYI - I put in 10kW of regular solar panels six years ago - the same year I bought a Tesla Model S.  So I like solar panels and Teslas.

Edit - I forgot to mention that one thing that you could do with the Powerwall is arb the difference in energy prices during the day which might save you a bit of cash.  But it puts you at the risk of having the batteries depleted when you need them.  If you were to charge your batteries at night and discharge during the day with a $0.10/kWh delta in prices you could save $1.35/day or $337/yr (assuming 250 days per year with differential energy pricing). 

[South Africa C4 user]

Happy wife...

[Neo1738]

I haven't integrated mine. Have a generac w natural gas. It does send notifications when turned on and maintenance etc. All networking, c4, most all lights, and all essential appliances are on the generator. Only thing I could see from integration point is maybe turn off some outlets/lights/electronics if the power goes out to not overload the generator. 

[zaphod]

1 hour ago, Neo1738 said:

 All networking, c4, most all lights, and all essential appliances are on the generator. Only thing I could see from integration point is maybe turn off some outlets/lights/electronics if the power goes out to not overload the generator. 

How do you control what is fed by the generator or not?  Do you have specific plugs in your house that are wired through the generator, like when you see red outlet plugs in buildings?

[joecheech]

10 hours ago, zaphod said:

How do you control what is fed by the generator or not? 

I'm interested in knowing this too.  I just have a transfer switch at my house so everything is run by the generator.  I'd probably have to have it rewired in order to steer power only to certain circuits or appliances.  

If there was a way to integrate the generator into C4 I could see some fun programing - like setting a "power conserve" mode through a variable that would roll-back things like HVAC, # of outside lights on, etc.  

[Neo1738]

I know what TVs/electronics are on the generator. For instance if it kicks in although the Receiver for the theater is in the rack and powered via that outlet I would probably not want to draw that amperage so I could then send command to turn off the theater. Things like that.  HVAC etc would be another thing to cut back on. 

[South Africa C4 user]

13 hours ago, zaphod said:

How do you control what is fed by the generator or not?  Do you have specific plugs in your house that are wired through the generator, like when you see red outlet plugs in buildings?

Yes, this is (mainly) how I do it.  I have the following set up:

1. A critical loads set of circuits (about half my consumption) which always is powered by generator and solar.  These would be the “red lugs”

2. another set of loads which I can power from the generator (or not). Based on some sort of relay (I assume).

3. Another set of loads which are mains only.

4. I also turn heavy loads (mostly part of item 2 above) on and off (like pool pumps via the Pentair system) based on certain variables (battery level / generator load).

[zaphod]

And given what I hear about Eskom you probably have a lot of experience with backup power!

[South Africa C4 user]

3 minutes ago, zaphod said:

And given what I hear about Eskom you probably have a lot of experience with backup power!

Sadly... Yes!

[DLite]

On 1/3/2021 at 7:55 AM, eggzlot said:

Likely have a whole home natural gas generator installed in the coming weeks. I see Generac has some Wi-Fi platform to get notices on when it’s running, maintenance needs, etc.  
 

I don’t think there is a need to tie into C4 but I figured I’d ask the masses.  
 

is it possible?  Any benefit?   With electrician out to install I’d to do any wiring now if relays are needed, etc 

We have a Generac generator with their mobile link cloud service.  Mobile Link informs you when you lose power, when the generator kicks in, when your utility power comes back online, and the maintenance status of the generator. That is useful when you are away from home.  Unfortunately, the cloud service itself doesn't link to any other service like IFTTT.  Even the email alerts come after a few minutes of delay and are not that useful to program off.

[cdcllc]

12 minutes ago, DLite said:

We have a Generac generator with their mobile link cloud service.  Mobile Link informs you when you lose power, when the generator kicks in, when your utility power comes back online, and the maintenance status of the generator. That is useful when you are away from home.  Unfortunately, the cloud service itself doesn't link to any other service like IFTTT.  Even the email alerts come after a few minutes of delay and are not that useful to program off.

@DLite - how reliable is the cloud service during an outage?  I wanted it, but ended up not buying the cloud service because whenever our power goes out, it seems the internet is down with it (my ISP is Comcast).  Maybe it connects via cell service and I just didn't investigate enough!?!?

 

[SMHarman]

On 1/4/2021 at 12:07 PM, zaphod said:

How long will the Powerwall power your entire house?  I believe they can put out 5kW of continuous power and each unit is 13.5kWh.  I think furnaces use around 500W so assuming that it is only powering your furnace then you should be good for 24 hours on one Powerwall.  But it will likely be powering more than your furnace.

The main reason that I would want a generator is if an ice storm knocked down power lines in the winter. This happened in 2013 here in Toronto.  Luckily I was not without power for too long - 24 hours off then 12 hours on, then another 12 hours off.  My next door neighbour was without power for six days - he was finally able to get a portable generator for his furnace four hours before power came back. When he rebuilt his house two years ago he put in a Generac.

FYI - I put in 10kW of regular solar panels six years ago - the same year I bought a Tesla Model S.  So I like solar panels and Teslas.

Edit - I forgot to mention that one thing that you could do with the Powerwall is arb the difference in energy prices during the day which might save you a bit of cash.  But it puts you at the risk of having the batteries depleted when you need them.  If you were to charge your batteries at night and discharge during the day with a $0.10/kWh delta in prices you could save $1.35/day or $337/yr (assuming 250 days per year with differential energy pricing). 

Few things to unpack here. 

1. One powerwall is not whole home. You would need two. 

2. You depleted the powerwall but you have solar on the roof that will replenish them during the day. 

So depending on time of year and sunshine and energy draw two PW could get you from 3 days to 6 days off grid. 

One PW on essential loads. Oil pump and heat circ pump, lights (led) fridge, microwave TV and Internet could keep you going days or have a dead spot between say 2 am and sunrise. 

On the dead before outage they communicate with the grid and weather and if a weather emergency is declared they top off and preserve content. In some esco situations they will even top off from the grid. Point being you should not start a storm depleted. 

Energy arb is a thing. Powerwall saved the solar industry in Hawaii as they time shift energy. You can buy energy from the grid midday when cheap and consume powerwall 7pm when expensive 

In MA you can also opt to sell to grid when energy is in demand. 

So for whole home 2 PW should suffice and the increased upfront cost be offset by 1) tax incentives 2) no maintainance costs 3) energy arb and credits. 

[DLite]

1 hour ago, cdcllc said:

@DLite - how reliable is the cloud service during an outage?  I wanted it, but ended up not buying the cloud service because whenever our power goes out, it seems the internet is down with it (my ISP is Comcast).  Maybe it connects via cell service and I just didn't investigate enough!?!?

 

Yes, it does connect via cell service.  They install a small cellular device wired to the generator, and that is what communicates with their cloud service.  In my experience, the push notifications from the Mobile Link app are instant and reliable. Email notifications are reliably sent, but they generally take a few minutes to arrive.  

[eggzlot]

1 hour ago, DLite said:

Yes, it does connect via cell service.  They install a small cellular device wired to the generator, and that is what communicates with their cloud service.  In my experience, the push notifications from the Mobile Link app are instant and reliable. Email notifications are reliably sent, but they generally take a few minutes to arrive.  

Hm maybe I could program off that text message via ifttt into c4 to shut off various stuff etc 

[cnicholson]

On 1/4/2021 at 6:45 AM, SMHarman said:

In this day, why a generator not Tesla Powerwall or similar. 

You'll need  lot of PowerWalls to run your whole house for very long-- and they will never keep your A/C going in summer for extended outages in hot areas.  Plus, batteries will need to be replaced much more frequently than generator.  

I think an ideal solution is to have Solar+Battery+Generator, all integrated (control + power) working together.   It seems that this is just now becoming an off-the-shelf solution with the new Generac inverters and transfer switches.   That's what I am hoping for in my current home build.

CA (PG&E at least) won't let you arbitrage TOU rates with batteries if you have solar (can't charge at night off-peak and discharge during peak daytime hours).  Bummer because this kills a big chunk of the ROI from batteries.

 

[zaphod]

2 hours ago, SMHarman said:

Few things to unpack here. 

1. One powerwall is not whole home. You would need two. 

2. You depleted the powerwall but you have solar on the roof that will replenish them during the day. 

So depending on time of year and sunshine and energy draw two PW could get you from 3 days to 6 days off grid. 

One PW on essential loads. Oil pump and heat circ pump, lights (led) fridge, microwave TV and Internet could keep you going days or have a dead spot between say 2 am and sunrise. 

On the dead before outage they communicate with the grid and weather and if a weather emergency is declared they top off and preserve content. In some esco situations they will even top off from the grid. Point being you should not start a storm depleted. 

Energy arb is a thing. Powerwall saved the solar industry in Hawaii as they time shift energy. You can buy energy from the grid midday when cheap and consume powerwall 7pm when expensive 

In MA you can also opt to sell to grid when energy is in demand. 

So for whole home 2 PW should suffice and the increased upfront cost be offset by 1) tax incentives 2) no maintainance costs 3) energy arb and credits. 

I wouldn't depend on any replenishment from solar cells in the winter, at least in snowy climates, due to (1) solar intensity in winter, (2) lack of sunshine on a day, and (3) snow/ice on solar panels.

Here is my generation in the last month (in the summer I often produce over 60kWh per day):

[Neo1738]

Forgot to mention I have 2 breakers on the generator and 1 not. So I know generally what can be powered by the generator. As for not going solar...30k investment and electric is literally .049 cents/kw in an area without amazing sun (no trees but northern Ohio), so ROI is like 30 years. 

[South Africa C4 user]

1 hour ago, Neo1738 said:

Forgot to mention I have 2 breakers on the generator and 1 not. So I know generally what can be powered by the generator. As for not going solar...30k investment and electric is literally .049 cents/kw in an area without amazing sun (no trees but northern Ohio), so ROI is like 30 years. 

Wow that is cheap! We pay 3 times that.

[Neo1738]

On 11/23/2021 at 2:58 PM, South Africa C4 user said:

Wow that is cheap! We pay 3 times that.

haha yup! One benefit to living where most people don't want to and having 2 nuclear plants within a 100 mile radius...now if I could only figure out why my fish have extra eyes and fins....