Avoid Luma NVR?

[Dr. Venkman]

We’re finally getting around to installing video cameras. 2 chime doorbells, 3-4 IP cameras, NVR. Don’t expect to be super users of the video system - record on motion, look who is at the door, run the NVR output to the video matrix, so it can be displayed on TV (maybe not too often). If we can program on motion events, I’m sure I’ll play with it, but it’s not obvious to me that we would be heavy users. 

Would like something that’s easy to navigate (though I don’t expect to be doing much video review). It would be nice to add a camera without too much trouble. It’s not imperative that our primary viewing method be the C4 iOS app, but it might be nice. 

My wife, especially, is going to prioritize ease of pulling up the cameras.

My dealer is recommending Luma cameras and the Luma 510 NVR, but there seem to be mixed opinions on Luma on here (with at least a couple opinions being that the best place for Luma equipment is the trash can).

I would love some current reactions to my dealer’s recommendation of Luma and/or some suggestions on what might be a better fit. 

Thanks much. 

[penn65000]

1 hour ago, Dr. Venkman said:

We’re finally getting around to installing video cameras. 2 chime doorbells, 3-4 IP cameras, NVR. Don’t expect to be super users of the video system - record on motion, look who is at the door, run the NVR output to the video matrix, so it can be displayed on TV (maybe not too often). If we can program on motion events, I’m sure I’ll play with it, but it’s not obvious to me that we would be heavy users. 

Would like something that’s easy to navigate (though I don’t expect to be doing much video review). It would be nice to add a camera without too much trouble. It’s not imperative that our primary viewing method be the C4 iOS app, but it might be nice. 

My wife, especially, is going to prioritize ease of pulling up the cameras.

My dealer is recommending Luma cameras and the Luma 510 NVR, but there seem to be mixed opinions on Luma on here (with at least a couple opinions being that the best place for Luma equipment is the trash can).

I would love some current reactions to my dealer’s recommendation of Luma and/or some suggestions on what might be a better fit. 

Thanks much. 

Don’t have good answer but know that Luma hardware is Hikvision. Luma rebrands and charge 2-3x. We have Hikvision in one home and Luma in another. They’re both a PITA and dealers struggle to make them work seamlessly. The app for both (same app) sucks. Luma just slaps their name on the app and adds no other functionality. There are also sometimes resolution issues with C4 OSD. Luma has custom firmware for this but we needed to wait MONTHS for it — ie an upgrade to help the cameras play w C4 ***as promised in marketing materials***. Even with this custom firmware the interface is clunky and awful. There is no good solution for C4. My favorite is Nest which has usable app — but doesn’t integrate w C4. If you want Luma — I’d use hikvision instead to save money — same hardware and there are C4 drivers. 

[LollerAgent]

Yeah - C4 camera support is kludgy at best.   The C4 app works fine for cursory viewing of cameras (which we use every day), but beyond that, it's not great.  There are limitations regarding resolution, slow PTZ, etc.  It's certainly an area they should invest in, but clearly haven't.  Native apps for cameras are better in almost every way, period.

Regarding Luma:  yep, they are just rebranded Hik.  There are many other cameras that are cheaper and better.  Really just depends on how much you want to invest in integration capability with C4.  Blue Iris supports nearly every camera, and can be integrated with C4 in various ways.  Maybe check into that.

[Dr. Venkman]

Thanks, both. I’ll expand on my thinking a little, in case someone wants to let me know I’m approaching it all wrong.

I sort of group camera solutions into four categories:

1. “Native” to C4 - Pakedge & Luma. Dealer-based, theoretically more tightly integrated and at lower risk of things like changing API’s.
2. Cloud-based consumer setups (Nest, Ring).
3. other NVR solutions. Might be a closed system (UniFi), or might be something more flexible (Hikvision, Dahua). 
4. Computer running NVR software (Blue Iris).

I have always had a natural aversion to #2 (maybe undeserved), and I don’t particularly want to maintain the computer required for #4. 

I have always liked the theoretical advantages to #1, but I understand they may be more theoretical than actual. 

I know next to nothing about the options in #3, or what C4 integration looks like. I like ubiquiti, in general, and their interface looks slick (but I think no hdmi output on NVR).

I would like to (at minimum) be able to have C4 know the doorbell rang (hence the chimes), but I’m 100% open to primary viewing being in another app, if that’s what’ll be best.

[penn65000]

I’d go #3. Have your alarm co install Hik then have your C4 dealer link to C4. Luma gets you nothing. Just make sure you’re using all C4 supported Hik. IMO Blue Iris sounds great but your host PC will prob get blue screen of death at some point. Best to get DVR same brand as cameras just to save headaches. 

[Dr. Venkman]

10 minutes ago, penn65000 said:

IMO Blue Iris sounds great but your host PC will prob get blue screen of death at some point.

Which has always been my primary concern with BI. I’m absolutely not going to check in on the host computer every day to make sure it didn’t crash or restart. 

13 minutes ago, penn65000 said:

I’d go #3. Have your alarm co install Hik then have your C4 dealer link to C4…Best to get DVR same brand as cameras just to save headaches. 

Which raises the question of doorbells. Still go C4 Chime and connect them to the Hik NVR?

[wnpublic]

i'm one of those who thinks Luma is trashworthy (but i'm not alone).  It's really hard to obtain right now, but my Unifi Protect system has been rock solid.

[Cyknight]

3rd party options that integrate well and their 'own' NVR available include:

Uniview

Dahua (paid driver)

HIKVision and their numerous OEM's out there (there's a LOT)

ClareVision

Merit-Lilin

 

 

I personally prefer Uniview, mainly because of the combination of:

-Good quality Cams (Starlight)

-NVRs have been reliable

-Good integration

-Good app, including pc app that can connect remotely

Dahua is good too, but there's the extra cost of the driver.

ClareVision surprised me recently, but not as good as the above two

Merit-Lillin and Hik options are OK too....but you know, Internet Explorer.

 

Blue Iris is a nice option to have out there, but I agree with the statements on computer running 24/7 - it's cheaper to do if you have an old PC lying around anyway, but unless you have a build sitting on a shelf that is designed to run 24/7.....

 

2 hours ago, Dr. Venkman said:

Which raises the question of doorbells. Still go C4 Chime and connect them to the Hik NVR?

To be clear, any half-decent NVR can record the DS2 and Chime doorbell units - they are both fully ONVIF capable.

[booch]

Agree with what others have said on a (surprising) lack of great options. Experts above likely have the best insight, and I wish I could have tried/seen more brands.

For NVR, I started with a basic HIK private label unit, and the software was awful. Mattered because my wife doesn't enjoy mastering unintuitive tech like I do, ha, so I ended up replacing it with a Luma 510. The price was redic for what it is, but the UI is materially better, and I wanted audio support (via JAP) plus appreciate the ease of LumaLink (even though it's also a HIK repackage). My cameras are all OEM US HIK (DS-2CD2183G0-IU 4K domes with built in mics), and they're nice (and relatively inexpensive). I can't get the advanced alerts/events working, but from what I hear they're iffy anyway, so I found other solutions for those use cases. The cams have it in the video/specs, which is what mattered to me most.

Hope this is helpful.

[Don Cohen]

My Dealer installed 2 Luma IP cameras, a DS2-Mini, and a Luma NVR (along with A/V, Lighting, Locks, etc.). I later added a Chime VDB. Out of our entire system, I have been least happy with the Luma 510 NVR. It's generally reliable, but can be flaky. I like to have a browser tab open on my 2nd monitor, where I can view all 4 cameras, and have found that the Luma will spontaneously reboot from time to time, requiring me to manually log back into the browser interface. The HD was replaced, then the entire unit, but this problem has persisted - twice in one day, not again for a week or two, but never fully stable.

I suspect most wouldn't be aware this occurs, because it does complete the reboot, and restore camera access on its own. And you'd only know if you were logged in at the time, as I am with my browser.

And another time, out of nowhere it lost the feed from the 2 IP cameras. We had to do a partial reset of the Luma itself to restore functionality.

So if I were choosing a system today, I would keep essentially everything else Control4-wise in general, but would definitely be looking at different NVR options.

FWIW.

[RAV]

Dealers abilities to implement, are as important as the equipment.

A lot of dealers use Luma because they offer support, RAs, advance replacements, and they work with Control4, and someone to call to help with setup.

Or you, or a dealer, need to spend the time to learn what works, what doesn't, where to get drivers, and how to setup "the other brand", whichever that be.
Getting support from the other brands isn't the same, and can change over time with firmware and support personnel.

The less integration with Control4 you desire, the easier the setup and more options there are.
This is a hobbyist focused website, weigh responses based on your abilities and desires for hands on.
 

[Dr. Venkman]

The more I think about it, the less concerned I am about C4 navigator or motion trigger integration. It would be nice, but not necessary. 

Ease of viewing the feeds (primarily on iOS app) and managing the system are more important. It’s also important that we can get to the doorbell feed as quickly as possible when someone rings it (less worried about monitoring doorbell motion).

The one C4 integration I would really like is the doorbell. I would like to be able to program off of a doorbell ring and potentially be able to pull up the doorbell feed on a tv. 

My improved focus raises a technical question about the C4 Chime doorbell:

If using Chime with another NVR (say Uniview), does C4 need to go thru the NVR at all, or can it get button press info and a live feed directly from the chime device without integrating the NVR at all (and without impacting Chime’s relationship to the NVR)?

[RAV]

Chime functions and NVR recording are independent of each other.

Chime doesn't require the NVR, does everything on it's own: intercom, snapshot, video, view, button, motion.
NVRs can record Chime as any other ONVIF compatible camera.

You can have your Chimes, and record it too.

[Dr. Venkman]

Thanks. Is the C4 iOS app (OS 3.2.x) pretty good at giving you an alert and getting you to the live feed quickly when the doorbell is pressed?

If so, this sounds like a good setup for me, and I just need to settle on the best NVR, regardless of C4 integration. 

[TundraSonic]

Along w/ some others we did a LOT of research and trials.  We found that hardware NVR's are antiquated, updates are not timely and updates can be buggy. Unifi is lacking critical features, not a stable platform and updates are frequent and buggy*. Synology is rock solid but lacking some important features. We all also wanted to stay away from systems that are proprietary and prefer to be able to use any cameras and other devices. Also having all our eggs in one basket w/ Unifi or Synology is scary.

Blue Iris and Security Spy quickly bubbled to the top of consumer affordable systems (there are better but they come with too many $$$'s) and of these Security Spy has proven the most stable. Both are pretty full featured and each has some features the other does not. 

If you're an Apple environment then Security Spy is the easy choice unless there some specific must-have feature that it's lacking. The IOS, IpadOS, and TVOS apps work well for remote monitoring and use as does the MacOS app. We have Apple TV's on all of our TV's that we use for all of our media. The one feature that we're still waiting on from Security Spy is a pop-up so that based on some trigger such as a doorbell ring a selected camera will pop-up in a window. 

If you're a Windows environment the Blue Iris might be better though some Windows folks have migrated to SS for increased performance and stability (and I know of one Apple person who's running BI for a critical triggering feature that they needed).

 

* Our network is comprised of 27 unifi devices, works well and with capabilities that I don't think could be touched for the money from any other vendor.  Cisco would be the next best upgrade, would be more stable/reliable and have more features. It'd also cost about 4x as much (I considered it and priced it). I'll harp about the bugginess of updates and features promised in 2019 that we still don't have but for the money I'll not be going anywhere else.

 

[TundraSonic]

On 12/23/2021 at 9:04 AM, RAV said:

This is a hobbyist focused website, weigh responses based on your abilities and desires for hands on.
 

Agree with the last part, not the first. 

I have three printers that I use for work. Am I a hobbyist because I purchase them myself, plug them in to my computer myself and configure them myself?

I have a Security Spy surveillance system in my studio that I purchased, installed, configured and maintain.  Am I a hobbyist?

Is someone who buys a computer and uses it without hiring someone to set it up for them a hobbyist?

[Control4Savant]

2 hours ago, TundraSonic said:

Agree with the last part, not the first. 

I have three printers that I use for work. Am I a hobbyist because I purchase them myself, plug them in to my computer myself and configure them myself?

I have a Security Spy surveillance system in my studio that I purchased, installed, configured and maintain.  Am I a hobbyist?

Is someone who buys a computer and uses it without hiring someone to set it up for them a hobbyist?

 

What?

No.

Yes.

Depends on what they are using the computer for.

[Control4Savant]

On 12/23/2021 at 12:49 PM, Dr. Venkman said:

Thanks. Is the C4 iOS app (OS 3.2.x) pretty good at giving you an alert and getting you to the live feed quickly when the doorbell is pressed?

If so, this sounds like a good setup for me, and I just need to settle on the best NVR, regardless of C4 integration. 

No. C4 iOS and doorbell integration is a constant issue. 

It’s all really a wash its true. I want to use Ubiquity but I don’t like the direction the company is heading, its not exactly inexpensive and Protect must be ran though a cloud account. I use Luma because of the price and support Snap gives me and they work well with either system.  I use ICRealtime for more advanced and larger scale systems and they are one of Savants preferred partners. 

 

 

[Cyknight]

11 hours ago, TundraSonic said:

I have three printers that I use for work. Am I a hobbyist because I purchase them myself, plug them in to my computer myself and configure them myself?

I have a Security Spy surveillance system in my studio that I purchased, installed, configured and maintain.  Am I a hobbyist?

Is someone who buys a computer and uses it without hiring someone to set it up for them a hobbyist?

In all three cases, you/they could be or could not be. Would depend on 'you/someone' as well as the perspective of the person answering.

But non of that matters - you seem to take the term 'hobbyist' as a negative term, and I would say it isn't.

He's just pointing out that the replies are made by people who enjoy working on home electronics and more. As in it's easy to do this stuff for them.

But if you can't - in fact - buy a computer and set it up for basic home use without assistance, you may not want to get into setting up a security camera system with Blue Iris or Security Spy....

 

Seems like reasonable enough advise.

I wouldn't advise many of my dear friends to use a wood/thickness planer either, even though I find it very easy to use myself. But a good portion of them is likely to rip several fingers off. And no I'm not a pro with it - I AM indeed a hobbyist. Because, you know, I like doing woodworking, so have invested time into learning it. Because it's a hobby of mine.

[Cyknight]

On 12/23/2021 at 10:49 AM, Dr. Venkman said:

Thanks. Is the C4 iOS app (OS 3.2.x) pretty good at giving you an alert and getting you to the live feed quickly when the doorbell is pressed?

iOS is not as smooth as android at this point - don't ask me the details on why as I have no answers.

It's easy enough to get a quick push notification with a still image from it, as in within a second, but that's not directly the intercom portion, but separate programming made.

Intercom on iOS has some limitations for sure.

[RAV]

On 12/24/2021 at 1:22 PM, TundraSonic said:

Agree with the last part, not the first. 

I have three printers that I use for work. Am I a hobbyist because I purchase them myself, plug them in to my computer myself and configure them myself?

I have a Security Spy surveillance system in my studio that I purchased, installed, configured and maintain.  Am I a hobbyist?

Is someone who buys a computer and uses it without hiring someone to set it up for them a hobbyist?

A hobbyist prefers to spend their TIME doing a task.
There's a very LARGE base, who want it all done for them. Whether that's changing car oil, setting up a printer, or even hanging Christmas lights.
Some people visiting this site want to validate their dealer's recommendation, or know they're making a good choice, or the implications of a choice.
Others may want a full DIY option.

This relates strongly to networking, cameras, and other subsystems relating to Control4.

[TundraSonic]

For myself, and I think for many others on here, work that we do in C4 (and computers, networks, etc.) is not a hobby. This is a core system that runs our house. I do programming, debugging, maintenance and other stuff because it needs to be done or because it'd be useful to have it done. I do it myself because it is often easier, faster and less expensive to do it myself than to try to explain to someone else what I want done, wait on them to do it on their schedule and then pay them for their time doing it*.

I prefer to not spend my time doing networking, computer, C4 and security/surveillance stuff. Or changing HVAC filters or replacing the battery in my truck or whatever. I have other things that I'd rather do with my time, some of which are indeed hobbies or recreational activities that I do purely for the enjoyment of doing them. I wish I could justify the cost or had the money available to have our integrator come by twice a week for a few hours to do a bunch of this stuff so that I could spend more time doing hobbies but I don't have the luxury of those funds being available. 

Also, hobbies are typically not mission-critical types of things. If I can't go on a hike, do a workout or finish a piece of furniture it's not a big deal. If C4 if malfunctioning then it can be a very big deal that affects a number of people.

So I, and I think many others, don't view this as a hobbyist focused forum. It's not a just-for-fun thing. It's actually a quite critical bit of our homes.

* There are many instances where paying someone else to do stuff is very worthwhile though - usually because they have skills or expertise or tools that I do not or sometimes purely because I do not have the time and it needs to get done.

[Dueport]

On 12/24/2021 at 1:10 PM, TundraSonic said:

Synology is rock solid but lacking some important features.

Curious what features you've found to be missing.  I use UniFi Protect now but don't like not being able to record the Chime to it (and in the future a DS2 at a gate) so I've been looking at options and was leaning toward Synology....

[Control4Savant]

2 hours ago, Dueport said:

Curious what features you've found to be missing.  I use UniFi Protect now but don't like not being able to record the Chime to it (and in the future a DS2 at a gate) so I've been looking at options and was leaning toward Synology....

Yeah.. I want to like the closed ecology and potential security because of it with Protect but that’s annoying that its not ONIF compatible. 

[TundraSonic]

 

23 hours ago, RAV said:

Some people visiting this site want to validate their dealer's recommendation, or know they're making a good choice, or the implications of a choice.

Or want to tap in to a broader knowledge base. Two or thirty brains can be much better than one. No matter how intelligent someone is or how experienced they are, they cannot know everything nor think of everything. Even within an extremely narrow area it's tough to be much of an expert. 

I once worked for a guy name Vint Cerf. He's the father of TCP/IP and most of how email is exchanged today came from him. He'd ask me questions about email or something and I always thought he was simply testing me - he wrote this stuff and knows it better than anyone. Over time though I learned that he was trying to get a different view on something or tap in to experience that I or others had that was different from his experience. I could devote 100% of my time to mail but he was also doing ATM and Frame Relay and SS7 and a myriad of other things.

My integrator is one (or two counting his boss) single person and he does HA and security and media and surveillance and lighting and other stuff. Great guy but no matter how intelligent he is he can't keep up with it all.