questions re video, advice wanted

[shawkyns]

So I am in the process of making some changes to my system. My dealer, after discussion, has become josh certified, and will be coming out this summer to pull wire for nano and micro installations.  since he is here, we will also be doing some upgrades, mainly to my standalone theater room.. However, we have been discussing potentially upgrading the video in the rest of the house as well.

Currently, I have a TV in my LR, which is a old panasonic plasma, running 720p.  I have 720p tv's in each of the bedrooms (3 more), a mix of JVC and samsung, all connected through a matrix (binary b300).  all get audio from receivers in the rack. my daughters room is c4 connected @4k with a standalone appleTV and LG screen, but it is not run into the matrix, and as such the audio is not playable currently through the receiver that provides audio to her room.  

My dealer is throwing out the idea of replacing the matrix with a new one, that does 4k, and uses HDbaset, which might prevent some of the interference issues I am having now with the more remote tv's (light in room at anything but off or 100percent on causes video glitches).  This would allow me to keep my centralized receivers, and my main video device, Apple TV ( we have two running through matrix).  we also have video from a BR, one in the living room and one in the bedroom, both of which send video/audio back through a hdbaset set into the matrix as well.  this is a reduction from what we used to have, since we have taken out the roku, directv, DUNE player.. although I am reconsidering dune with josh being installed. 

Ideally, I would like to make the move to 4k in all of the rooms. replace the tv's with newer (probably sony), but leave the BD players as is.. most of our watch is streaming anyway these days, and I have 4k BD for the theater.

would it be worth it to ditch the matrix?  it seemed like it was good to have when I had directv, and multiple sources, but now it is basically appletv and maybe a BR.  if I went this route, is there a good way to get the audio from the TV back to the rack so I can still use the AVR? I was thinking of using the HDMI ARC to a JAP, and break out the audio at the rack, but this seems like an expensive overkill for just audio.  dealer has suggested maybe using HDMI sender receiver units to do the same thing, but this seems like it may be a bit of a kludge and rack hog, not that JAP wouldnt be... plus it needs its own VLAN from what I have read.

I would really love to hear some suggestions as to the best way forward for this, and what other people have ended using as solutions for a setup like this.

 

TIA

 

 

 

[RAV]

Do you want the ability to watch one source on multiple TVs in sync at the same time?

or each TV operates independent, sharing sources for convenience?

[Control4Savant]

3 hours ago, shawkyns said:

So I am in the process of making some changes to my system. My dealer, after discussion, has become josh certified, and will be coming out this summer to pull wire for nano and micro installations.  since he is here, we will also be doing some upgrades, mainly to my standalone theater room.. However, we have been discussing potentially upgrading the video in the rest of the house as well.

Currently, I have a TV in my LR, which is a old panasonic plasma, running 720p.  I have 720p tv's in each of the bedrooms (3 more), a mix of JVC and samsung, all connected through a matrix (binary b300).  all get audio from receivers in the rack. my daughters room is c4 connected @4k with a standalone appleTV and LG screen, but it is not run into the matrix, and as such the audio is not playable currently through the receiver that provides audio to her room.  

My dealer is throwing out the idea of replacing the matrix with a new one, that does 4k, and uses HDbaset, which might prevent some of the interference issues I am having now with the more remote tv's (light in room at anything but off or 100percent on causes video glitches).  This would allow me to keep my centralized receivers, and my main video device, Apple TV ( we have two running through matrix).  we also have video from a BR, one in the living room and one in the bedroom, both of which send video/audio back through a hdbaset set into the matrix as well.  this is a reduction from what we used to have, since we have taken out the roku, directv, DUNE player.. although I am reconsidering dune with josh being installed. 

Ideally, I would like to make the move to 4k in all of the rooms. replace the tv's with newer (probably sony), but leave the BD players as is.. most of our watch is streaming anyway these days, and I have 4k BD for the theater.

would it be worth it to ditch the matrix?  it seemed like it was good to have when I had directv, and multiple sources, but now it is basically appletv and maybe a BR.  if I went this route, is there a good way to get the audio from the TV back to the rack so I can still use the AVR? I was thinking of using the HDMI ARC to a JAP, and break out the audio at the rack, but this seems like an expensive overkill for just audio.  dealer has suggested maybe using HDMI sender receiver units to do the same thing, but this seems like it may be a bit of a kludge and rack hog, not that JAP wouldnt be... plus it needs its own VLAN from what I have read.

I would really love to hear some suggestions as to the best way forward for this, and what other people have ended using as solutions for a setup like this.

 

TIA

 

 

 

I wouldn’t invest in HDBT. The cost for a full 4k capable system is on par with an AVoiP like JAP which I would suggest. 

JAP does need its own VLAN however all of that is done on its own or stacked (Luxul) L3 switch and doesnt involve router config or really any advanced networking skills. JAP config makes setting up their system just about plug and play. 

The least expensive distribution option is a basic HDMI switch and some baluns for the TVs and remote BDP.

You can also just localize your ATVs behind the displays and extract audio as needed. The only real advantage to distribution is synced video. You also cant steam a live event on 8 streamers with one account usually so it depends on your application as well. 

[shawkyns]

I dont care that much about synced video, originally it was a way to get 2 directv boxes working in multiple rooms, with the audio extracted to play in other areas.  I have seen about 5k for the 4k matrix system, and it seems as if the JAP would cost about 2x that price, plus need networking upgrades.  I dont want to really run a VLAN on dedicated equipment, and from everything I have read anecdotally, 4k JAP is a real hog when it comes to networking bandwidth and speed if you dont run the vlan..  

 

I was thinking about JAP for the audio return, but that is only 2ch stereo.. the runs are too long for HDMI, which is why we did the b30o and are now considering hdbaset, because even over cat5e there are still video glitches.

 

Steve

 

[tekki70]

honestly if all your doing is streaming, i would just put 4k apple tv behind each tv. would save thousands, less probability for issues, and then you can invest that saved money in more advancements of the system

[msgreenf]

Roku over Apple TV

[Control4Savant]

4 hours ago, shawkyns said:

I dont care that much about synced video, originally it was a way to get 2 directv boxes working in multiple rooms, with the audio extracted to play in other areas.  I have seen about 5k for the 4k matrix system, and it seems as if the JAP would cost about 2x that price, plus need networking upgrades.  I dont want to really run a VLAN on dedicated equipment, and from everything I have read anecdotally, 4k JAP is a real hog when it comes to networking bandwidth and speed if you dont run the vlan..  

 

I was thinking about JAP for the audio return, but that is only 2ch stereo.. the runs are too long for HDMI, which is why we did the b30o and are now considering hdbaset, because even over cat5e there are still video glitches.

 

Steve

 

Well idk who is talking to you about JAP but most of that is wrong. It doesnt impact your LAN bandwidth in any way. A 20x20 JAP system for example runs on one Luxul L3 switch and all routing and traffic is internal to that switch (hence the L3) and its POE transmitters and receivers. There is no VLAN configuration on the router or other LAN devices… 

I agree video distribution is probably overkill for you but the scalability, upgrade paths and service advantages are what makes AVIP worth the increased cost over HDBT… and I don’t know what product you are being spec’d but most 8X8 HBDT matrix are $5k at lest just for the unit before receivers. The two solutions are pretty close and JAP costs are much less if you have more than 8x8 requirements. How many TVs do you have? 

3 hours ago, msgreenf said:

Roku over Apple TV

Sure if you want a less powerful unit. 

[zaphod]

9 minutes ago, Control4Savant said:

Sure if you want a less powerful unit. 

Less powerful in what ways?  If you are just watching Netflix or Disney+ having it work seemlessly is more imporant than being able to render the home screen in 52 millisecons instead of 82 milliseconds.  And Roku just works more seemlessly with C4.

[RAV]

If you do Josh, you'll want Roku.

2 options:

1. TVs with Roku local, BR hooked to TV. Audio out of TV back to receivers, several ways depending on wiring.

It's likely from the 720 comment your receivers can't handle 4K. So if you put your streaming boxes at the rack through the receivers to the TV via HDBaseT, you won't have 4K without replacing the receivers too. Which are hard to find right now.
But that is the way I'd suggest you do it, but it involves replacing all those receivers. Limitation, no local gaming to receiver without more parts.

2. Roku and Blu to Receivers, HDBaseT 4K to 4K TVs as monitors.

Matrix pros: Sync to multiple TVs, Less stuff in the rooms, Everything centralized, Typically easy audio extraction, and Share expensive sources, mostly Kalediscape these days.

[Control4Savant]

42 minutes ago, zaphod said:

Less powerful in what ways?  If you are just watching Netflix or Disney+ having it work seemlessly is more imporant than being able to render the home screen in 52 millisecons instead of 82 milliseconds.  And Roku just works more seemlessly with C4.

Lol. Can’t argue any of that. 

[shawkyns]

thanks for all the replies.  I may put a roku in just because it will work better with josh, but then again roku..  really dont like the interface at all. I am hopeful they will get better ATV integration in the future.

Right now, I have the video sources in the rack.  HDMI runs to the b300 matrix, and is split to HDMI from the matrix to the receivers and to cat5 for the video run to the rooms.  audio in the room is through the receiver only.

If I go app tv, like the sony, then getting audio back would be the hard part, especially for 5.1  I dont want to put receivers in each room, and the speaker wiring is already run back to the rack and would be really hard and expensive to move.

 

 

 

 

[Andrew luecke]

2 hours ago, shawkyns said:

thanks for all the replies.  I may put a roku in just because it will work better with josh, but then again roku..  really dont like the interface at all. I am hopeful they will get better ATV integration in the future.

Right now, I have the video sources in the rack.  HDMI runs to the b300 matrix, and is split to HDMI from the matrix to the receivers and to cat5 for the video run to the rooms.  audio in the room is through the receiver only.

If I go app tv, like the sony, then getting audio back would be the hard part, especially for 5.1  I dont want to put receivers in each room, and the speaker wiring is already run back to the rack and would be really hard and expensive to move.

 

By the way, absolutely not critical, but if your installer is pulling cable to important AV areas or difficult spots there may be AV in the future (or Wifi AP's), I'd also get him to run fibre at the same time if it can be done cheaply and efficiently (you don't need the connectors on it yet, and can leave it coiled in the wall).

If it's a single story house or the cables are easy to install later though, better to do later. IF you were building though, or knocking holes in walls, I'd put it in if it's a long term home.. 

Wifi 7 will be 30-40gbps and Ultra High speed HDMI is 48gbps. So, these applications greatly increase the usecases for fibre imho..

[shawkyns]

we are pulling a few wires and terminating some other that have been pre run for the josh.  when the house was first wired, he pulled 2-3 extra cables per room.  so, we wont be able to do fiber, though it is a great ides.

[RAV]

4 hours ago, shawkyns said:

thanks for all the replies.  I may put a roku in just because it will work better with josh, but then again roku..  really dont like the interface at all. I am hopeful they will get better ATV integration in the future.

Right now, I have the video sources in the rack.  HDMI runs to the b300 matrix, and is split to HDMI from the matrix to the receivers and to cat5 for the video run to the rooms.  audio in the room is through the receiver only.

If I go app tv, like the sony, then getting audio back would be the hard part, especially for 5.1  I dont want to put receivers in each room, and the speaker wiring is already run back to the rack and would be really hard and expensive to move.

Roku Interface - don't like the interface, won't be there much since both Josh and Control4 can direct launch apps, which can't do with Apple. But to each their own.

You have cat from rack to TVs sending HDMI over HDbaseT.
If you put all the video stuff at each TV, then you can use the same wire, with different modules, to turn it around and instead send the audio out of the TV to a single input on the receiver.
(or spend more money for HDbaseT modules that can do both)
That was my option 1.
Those modules will be chosen based on the capabilities of your TV and receiver. They can be optical audio, or ARC if the equipment is new enough.

 

[Cyknight]

3 hours ago, RAV said:

Roku Interface - don't like the interface, won't be there much since both Josh and Control4 can direct launch apps, which can't do with Apple. But to each their own.

The Roku interface is certainly a bit plain compared to others (though the plain android TV version is no better, probably worse) - but I haven't been, or I should say my FAMILY hasn't been, in the Roku interface in years... the only reason I've gone to it is because I'm testing things on my system. It's almost like saying you don't like how your computer's BIOS interface looks ... it won't matter one whit to the vast majority of people.

[lippavisual]

I’m liking AVPro over JAP as of late.

[Control4Savant]

1 hour ago, lippavisual said:

I’m liking AVPro over JAP as of late.

Wouldn’t shock me. How has the MX stuff been on large set up?  I don’t implement w/ Savant since they have their own and JAP has been so easy to use all these years. 

[lippavisual]

Same as any other IP solution.  No problems to report.  Largest to date with these is 4x16.  

[Cyknight]

HDbaseT as such is perfectly fine - suggesting 'not to invest in it' is ridiculous - it's part of the HDMI alliance to begin with, and does just work.

That said, AVoIP solutions are more than fine too - they both work well, each have some pros and cons. All depends on the best fit (and these days ... availability)

AVProEdge's MX line is certainly a great piece.

We've done a few over 24 endpoints, and though we've not gone over 40 4K endpoints yet (where they ask to get involved, presumably because they've seen issues and it needs a tweaked setup)  it seems to handle smoothly across any size so far.