Multi room audio

[Brian Hamachek]

I’m curious how other people are handling multi room audio. I originally had a Control4 matrix and a Sonos Port which would output to the matrix. This allowed me to use the Sonos app to select music, but room selection would still have to be done via Control4. I eventually replaced my Control4 matrix with numerous Sonos Amps (one for each room). Now I can use the Sonos app for everything, along with Airplay2, and Control4 plays more of a secondary role. How are you handling multi room audio and what are some of the pros and cons of the setup you have?

[LollerAgent]

Using a Triad AMS matrix and native C4 audio (outputs from a C4 controller into the matrix), dump amps.  This provides the most intuitive interface since you don't need to use any other apps other than the C4 app (unless of course you are using Spotify -- but it's not terrible).

[CTMatthew]

It's taken some years, but I have put streaming/casting at the top of my list for music systems. Folks are just too comfortable in the native apps to try and force them into a totally foreign ecosystem for music streaming at this point. Most systems are Sonos based for this reason. Clients are rarely interfacing with the Sonos app let along the Control4 overlay. 

Where I think there's a big value is in expanding the control footprint to keypads. 

Personally I have Bang & Olufsen Multiroom and my favorite feature when using it via Control4 is putting the "join" command on a keypad in every room. I can walk it, tap Join, and expand the music to this room. I tap again and it drops it. I usually start with an AirPlay 2 stream to one room and then join within the B&O ecosystem. 

Unfortunately Sonos hasn't made their "join" command available through their driver, but having touch controls still adds a lot of value to a Sonos system. 

[LollerAgent]

31 minutes ago, CTMatthew said:

Personally I have Bang & Olufsen Multiroom and my favorite feature when using it via Control4 is putting the "join" command on a keypad in every room. I can walk it, tap Join, and expand the music to this room. I tap again and it drops it. I usually start with an AirPlay 2 stream to one room and then join within the B&O ecosystem. 

I do the same thing with C4 native audio using the Room Control driver's "join" functionality.  Super handy - and we use it all of the time.

An example:  we are listening to music in our master bedroom, but want to go take a shower in the bathroom.  Double tap the "Music" button on the Bathroom's keypad, and it will automatically join the master bedroom session if it's on.

[Topspin14m]

I use Sonos myself but also Roon, which runs over Sonos and allows me to search Tidal on my wall T4 pads and not just be limited to predefined playlists. It’s good for folks who are visiting or don’t use Sonos.

Only thing that doesn’t work great is the room grouping in C4. Gotta do that in Roon or Sonos, but I rarely alter the groupings. Also, if you use Roon/Tidal, you don’t get Atmos content. Not something I use anyway in a bunch of my rooms that don’t have Sonos Arcs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[zaphod]

I use Spotify Connect as my source.  I usually use the Spotify App on my phone to start playing music and I then play to the "device" which starts the playback through C4 to my ceiling speakers.  If I want to add additional rooms I then have to go into the C4 app and add other rooms.

I also have set up keypads in several rooms to play the Daily Mix 1 Playlist from Spotify.  That way I just click one button and playback starts.  But that doesn't give much options in what you are going to listen to.

[CTMatthew]

On 7/31/2023 at 10:21 AM, LollerAgent said:

I do the same thing with C4 native audio using the Room Control driver's "join" functionality.  Super handy - and we use it all of the time.

An example:  we are listening to music in our master bedroom, but want to go take a shower in the bathroom.  Double tap the "Music" button on the Bathroom's keypad, and it will automatically join the master bedroom session if it's on.

So I'm curious if you're using this the way I'm describing. Are you using the "Sync source between rooms" feature?

Basically every option I've seen, including this one, requires that you specify the rooms. There's no true "join" command available. Where I could start the music in the kitchen, or patio, or garage, or office, and still just tap a button that finds an ongoing session and joins it. Sonos does this with a long-press on the Play/Pause button, but they haven't made that command available in their driver. 

[therockhr]

On 7/31/2023 at 9:48 AM, CTMatthew said:

It's taken some years, but I have put streaming/casting at the top of my list for music systems. Folks are just too comfortable in the native apps to try and force them into a totally foreign ecosystem for music streaming at this point. Most systems are Sonos based for this reason. Clients are rarely interfacing with the Sonos app let along the Control4 overlay. 

Where I think there's a big value is in expanding the control footprint to keypads. 

Personally I have Bang & Olufsen Multiroom and my favorite feature when using it via Control4 is putting the "join" command on a keypad in every room. I can walk it, tap Join, and expand the music to this room. I tap again and it drops it. I usually start with an AirPlay 2 stream to one room and then join within the B&O ecosystem. 

Unfortunately Sonos hasn't made their "join" command available through their driver, but having touch controls still adds a lot of value to a Sonos system. 

That join command is a nice feature. I have a Russound MCA-C5 and just looked through their RIO API and they dont have anything like that. Would be a simple way to get audio quickly in a room.

Does Control4 have any kind of command that finds any existing Listen sessions that a room would have access to to join?

[CTMatthew]

3 minutes ago, therockhr said:

That join command is a nice feature. I have a Russound MCA-C5 and just looked through their RIO API and they dont have anything like that. Would be a simple way to get audio quickly in a room.

Does Control4 have any kind of command that finds any existing Listen sessions that a room would have access to to join?

I don't believe it does. I've dug through the Room Control driver and you can sync rooms, but there has to be a primary and target room specified. 

The only product that has this command available in Control4 (that I'm aware of) is Bang & Olufsen. As I mentioned above, Sonos has it as a physical control on their products, but that doesn't do you much good when it's a few Amps in a rack. It would be nice if they made that a "device specific command" and put it in the API. 

Once you've experienced a true Join command it becomes one of the most important features in a multiroom audio system. Aside from the great sound and designs, I'd never migrate away from Bang & Olufsen unless a Join function was available both natively and through Control4.

[BY96]

I was just wondering about the option of a join command. I set up Pico four button remotes for my wife to start a "media scene" in the kitchen and hallway, for example, but would like her to be able to add the bedroom and bathroom to the same session when she goes to the back of the house. I haven't dived into HE yet, but I was hoping there was a way to trigger a command to join an already existing "media scene," but it sounds like nothing like that exists. Too bad. 

[LollerAgent]

1 hour ago, CTMatthew said:

So I'm curious if you're using this the way I'm describing. Are you using the "Sync source between rooms" feature?

Basically every option I've seen, including this one, requires that you specify the rooms. There's no true "join" command available. Where I could start the music in the kitchen, or patio, or garage, or office, and still just tap a button that finds an ongoing session and joins it. Sonos does this with a long-press on the Play/Pause button, but they haven't made that command available in their driver. 

I believe so -- I'll check when I get home.

This is true -- but I actually prefer the functionality that I have.  It allows me to define precisely how I want to group/join sessions.  For example, if I have a session on in my Kitchen area, I might not want to hear the same thing in my master+master bath, but I would want to hear the same thing in my master bedroom+master bath.

Programming allows me to do the following:  "If I double tap (join) the 'Music' button in the master bathroom, and there is an active session in the neighboring master bedroom, join it.  If not, check to see if there is an active session elsewhere in the home (eg, the kitchen) and join it instead."  It allows me to specify an order so to speak.

Of course you may be able to do this in B&O as well - not sure.

[LollerAgent]

3 minutes ago, BY96 said:

I was just wondering about the option of a join command. I set up Pico four button remotes for my wife to start a "media scene" in the kitchen and hallway, for example, but would like her to be able to add the bedroom and bathroom to the same session when she goes to the back of the house. I haven't dived into HE yet, but I was hoping there was a way to trigger a command to join an already existing "media scene," but it sounds like nothing like that exists. Too bad. 

Use the room control driver -- simple.

On button press, if a session is active in room X, join that session.  

[BY96]

1 minute ago, LollerAgent said:

Use the room control driver -- simple.

On button press, if a session is active in room X, join that session.  

Guess I misunderstood the above discussion and thought it was not possible to join. I don't have the room control driver but will ask my dealer about it. 

Thanks. 

[CTMatthew]

14 minutes ago, LollerAgent said:

I believe so -- I'll check when I get home.

This is true -- but I actually prefer the functionality that I have.  It allows me to define precisely how I want to group/join sessions.  For example, if I have a session on in my Kitchen area, I might not want to hear the same thing in my master+master bath, but I would want to hear the same thing in my master bedroom+master bath.

Programming allows me to do the following:  "If I double tap (join) the 'Music' button in the master bathroom, and there is an active session in the neighboring master bedroom, join it.  If not, check to see if there is an active session elsewhere in the home (eg, the kitchen) and join it instead."  It allows me to specify an order so to speak.

Of course you may be able to do this in B&O as well - not sure.

I'm not sure how you're doing this. I'd be interested to see a screenshot of the programming you've set.

B&O does allow for a join order by product in the deep config GUI on each product. But it's very rare that there are two things playing in the house let alone more than that. So wherever I'm joining from it's almost a certainty that I want to grab the only thing playing elsewhere in the house.

[CTMatthew]

1 hour ago, BY96 said:

Guess I misunderstood the above discussion and thought it was not possible to join. I don't have the room control driver but will ask my dealer about it. 

Thanks. 

It sounds like LollerAgent is creating a join-like feature based on the use cases in his home. I'm still eager to hear how he's doing it, but sounds like he can have specific rooms join into other specific rooms (which is certainly useful), but I'm not sure his master bath could join his kitchen this way.

[LollerAgent]

2 hours ago, CTMatthew said:

I'm not sure how you're doing this. I'd be interested to see a screenshot of the programming you've set.

B&O does allow for a join order by product in the deep config GUI on each product. But it's very rare that there are two things playing in the house let alone more than that. So wherever I'm joining from it's almost a certainty that I want to grab the only thing playing elsewhere in the house.

Here is an example -- it's not quite like I remembered, but I think it achieves the same or similar goals:

If my master bath has an active session, a double-tap to the "Music" button in my master bedroom will join that session.

If there isn't anything playing in the master bath, a double-tap will then try to join the session in the Living Room (closer in proximity to my master bath).

Lastly -- if there isn't anything playing in the living room either, it will try to join the kitchen's session.

Again -- this programming is obviously specific to how I want things setup and ordered, and it requires quite a bit of programming on each keypad -- but it works great for us.

[c4toys]

I mainly use iheart for my local radio stations(keeps me up to date on concerts and local events). the room control driver is an easy "join" between 2 rooms. I use my "Home T/F" and motions for music to follow me around the house in the mornings.

Joining to the Wake agent does time out so I have that room turn off as soon as the next room joins it in the morning. I most likely had the room power property incorrectly set so the both rooms would turn off when the wake agent timed out.

 

[South Africa C4 user]

9 hours ago, BY96 said:

I was just wondering about the option of a join command. I set up Pico four button remotes for my wife to start a "media scene" in the kitchen and hallway, for example, but would like her to be able to add the bedroom and bathroom to the same session when she goes to the back of the house. I haven't dived into HE yet, but I was hoping there was a way to trigger a command to join an already existing "media scene," but it sounds like nothing like that exists. Too bad. 

While I have a “join” command working via lots of programming in both my homes, I am pretty sure that the Domosapiens Keypd Audio Control driver can do this. @pbir would be able to confirm this (or not).

I know that when I had this added to my project a couple of years back, I wished that it had been around 5 years ago as it would have saved me a lot of programming!

The Keypad Audio Control driver sits on top of the Room Control driver and adds significant functionality.

[South Africa C4 user]

7 hours ago, LollerAgent said:

Here is an example -- it's not quite like I remembered, but I think it achieves the same or similar goals:

If my master bath has an active session, a double-tap to the "Music" button in my master bedroom will join that session.

If there isn't anything playing in the master bath, a double-tap will then try to join the session in the Living Room (closer in proximity to my master bath).

Lastly -- if there isn't anything playing in the living room either, it will try to join the kitchen's session.

Again -- this programming is obviously specific to how I want things setup and ordered, and it requires quite a bit of programming on each keypad -- but it works great for us.

My programming is a little more complex (although I suspect the Domosapiens driver above would simplify it significantly) and works something like what follows.

Areas of the house that are on top of each other and won’t want different music playing are identified and grouped together. Areas that are close to each other (likely to not want the different music playing on different zones) are then identified.  By way of example, I have the following:

Kitchen, Dining Room and Lounge grouped as Downstairs.  They are open plan and would never want separate music streams playing.

Jacuzzi, Patio, Sauna and Steam room are grouped as Outside.  I have Outside and Downstairs identified as areas that are unlikely to want different music as they run into each other if the sliding doors are open.  For completeness, my other group is Bedroom Suite which includes the main bedroom, bathroom, TV lounge and balcony.  All other zones (6 or 7) are not grouped but have music buttons that work the same way (without having to look for other zones in the group playing).

I will use the kitchen music button as an example but the same applies to any music button in the house.

If I press the kitchen music button and music is already playing in the kitchen, it turns all Downstairs music off.

If I press the kitchen music button and music is not playing, it first checks for music playing in the dining room or lounge and joins to this.  Failing that, it checks for music playing outside (any room) and joins to that.  Failing this, it checks for my General Tidal stream playing anywhere in the house and joins to that.  Finally, if all of these fail, it plays a standard playlist on my General Tidal stream.

If I press the kitchen music button twice, it checks for music downstairs (but not outside) and plays this.  If that fails, it checks for any zone playing my wife’s Tidal stream and joins this.  Failing this, it plays a playlist on my wife’s Tidal stream.

If I press the kitchen music button three times, it checks for music downstairs (but not outside) and plays this.  If that fails, it checks for any zone playing my Tidal stream and joins this.  Failing this, it plays a playlist on my Tidal stream.

If I press the kitchen music button four times, it checks for music downstairs (but not outside) and plays this.  If that fails, it checks for any zone playing my daughter’s Tidal stream and joins this.  Failing this, it plays a playlist on my daughter’s Tidal stream.

I have 4 (actually 6 but only 4 are relevant to this post) Tidal drivers all connected to different family member accounts and with different standard playlists for use in Control4 via music keypad buttons.

LED feedback on my keypad is instant when the button is pressed; however, I wait 2 seconds to see what music to play (to allow for double, triple and quadruple clicks which I track via programming rather than the native double click etc. functionality. In my setup, you cannot turn music off for 30 seconds after turning on the music and if you press the button during this period, it simply changes source (scrolls through sources) in the same order as the button clicks meaning that, for instance, if I double click but mean to triple click and hear my wife’s music start playing, I simply press the button again and it flips to my music.

The above is a huge amount of programming (even with clever use of variables, timers and macros to minimise repeating the same code anywhere).  From memory, the Domosapiens driver can do much of this directly in the driver setup. Posting this does make me think I need to probably move to the driver at some stage and delete my code - it will make maintenance easier!

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by South Africa C4 user

[RAV]

I setup Music Off, Music, and volume up/down on keypads.
Music sets to a station, another tap, a different station etc.
Music Off:
  If Room off, checks nearby rooms If On in a desired order, and sets to same of first valid, or sets to first preset if none other are on.
  If Room is on, turns off.

In programing, under the room's variables, is "Currently Selected Device" which you can set to any other rooms "Currently Selected Device"
(Room Driver does similar)

[CTMatthew]

LollerAgent - Thanks for posting. That's what I suspected. You're basically programming the logic for joining versus there being a true "join" feature. The double-edged sword for C4 is that a top-flight programmer can often approximate functionality through some conditionals. 

The Bang & Olufsen system just has this feature and you can link a keypad button or experience button to the Join feature on any given product. This also makes it a little easier should you move devices. Obviously if you're using a matrix to an amp to hard-wired architectural speakers you're not likely to move anything, but B&O is usually a mixture of hard-wired architectural with free-standing speakers. 

Hopefully I can convince Sonos to push this into their driver somehow! It'll make Sonos users' lives a lot easier!

[therockhr]

1 hour ago, CTMatthew said:

LollerAgent - Thanks for posting. That's what I suspected. You're basically programming the logic for joining versus there being a true "join" feature. The double-edged sword for C4 is that a top-flight programmer can often approximate functionality through some conditionals. 

The Bang & Olufsen system just has this feature and you can link a keypad button or experience button to the Join feature on any given product. This also makes it a little easier should you move devices. Obviously if you're using a matrix to an amp to hard-wired architectural speakers you're not likely to move anything, but B&O is usually a mixture of hard-wired architectural with free-standing speakers. 

Hopefully I can convince Sonos to push this into their driver somehow! It'll make Sonos users' lives a lot easier!

I think I have asked you this before but what B&O systems do you have? Aren't most of their systems single room based but can be tied together? I havent really seen a matrix or the like from them.

I would like to see the Join feature be added to the Room control driver.

[CTMatthew]

1 hour ago, therockhr said:

I think I have asked you this before but what B&O systems do you have? Aren't most of their systems single room based but can be tied together? I havent really seen a matrix or the like from them.

I would like to see the Join feature be added to the Room control driver.

Sorry if I missed that. All of B&O's audio products have been part of BeoLink Multiroom for some time. I have some products that go back to 2015 that are compatible. I personally have a mix of stand-alone speakers like the BeoSound 1, BeoSound 2, BeoSound 35, BeoSound Level, and then room kits like the Essence MKII (the older room kit) and the BeoSound Core (the newer room kit). I have my eye on the new A5

They all have AirPlay 2 so you can use them that way as well, but their internal multiroom system is much more stable. I just love the fact that I can touch the top of each speaker or a wall control to join or drop rooms.

 

[Neo1738]

I actually set the volume up to join the room previous to it for a few (If x room media active join zone, else volume up) and also have a couple keypads single, double, triple tap joins rooms A to B, B to A, and B to A and C etc.

[CTMatthew]

This sort of conditional logic has always been possible through Room Control, but any of us who sell C4 for a living know that the more back end programming you author on a project the less profitable it becomes and the more support it requires over the years. 

The ideal scenario is to choose products that already do what you want them to do and leverage the native feature set in the programming. 

I'll keep beating the drum for C4 & Sonos to figure out how to pull this capability into their drivers as it would make an incredible case for keypad sales on a job where there might not be a lighting control footprint.