Home retrofit advice

[salum]

14 hours ago, ejn1 said:

Just recognize if later you change the fixtures, you may have to change the dimmers also.   For this reason, I would just go with the Adaptive Phase and be done with it but all preference.   Plus we are talking about a 12,000 sq ft home with tons of TVs, equipment etc and why are we having a conversation about the essential line of dimmers???   If this guy doesnt have the budget for C4 standard line, plus some dealer assistance, who does

I plan on doing everything LED for longevity.  I recall in my previous home a lot of my LED bulbs dying, and I would always blame the LED manufacturer.  But after doing some brief research on forward vs adaptive phase switches...maybe it was my switches that killed them. 

Despite this, one of my dealers says he has had success with LED fixtures on the essential line of dimmers.  But they are forward phase, and from what I understand adaptive phase is better for the LED electronics.  But the adaptive phase are nearly double the cost.  At that point then maybe its worth considering lutron.  I was only considering control4 due to the cost being so less...but now I understand because it was the essential line.

[ejn1]

8 hours ago, salum said:

I plan on doing everything LED for longevity.  I recall in my previous home a lot of my LED bulbs dying, and I would always blame the LED manufacturer.  But after doing some brief research on forward vs adaptive phase switches...maybe it was my switches that killed them. 

Despite this, one of my dealers says he has had success with LED fixtures on the essential line of dimmers.  But they are forward phase, and from what I understand adaptive phase is better for the LED electronics.  But the adaptive phase are nearly double the cost.  At that point then maybe its worth considering lutron.  I was only considering control4 due to the cost being so less...but now I understand because it was the essential line.

Lutron makes nice stuff but if you have a Control4 system, I personally would opt for C4...  Are you saying their Phase-Adaptive Dimmer is 1/2 the cost of a Control4 adaptive phase dimmer?   I would be surprised at that level of cost difference...

Also, just to note that you can program the C4 light switches to do additional things with double and triple taps..  Eg turn an entire room off with a double tap.   Not sure if the Lutron driver in C4 allows for that.

[JSTRONG]

If your going to compare essential line to lutron it would not be ra2

maybe casetta. And I would not be using casetta in your 12000 sq ft home. 
 

just keep in mind if you don’t use c4 lighting 2 things happen

1. you lose your zigbee mesh so now you will need more c4 zigbee controllers 

2  lighting programming will be built and maintained in Luton programming   

 

[wnpublic]

3 hours ago, JSTRONG said:

 

just keep in mind if you don’t use c4 lighting 2 things happen

1. you lose your zigbee mesh so now you will need more c4 zigbee controllers 

2  lighting programming will be built and maintained in Luton programming   

 

Total non issues unless you assume the conclusion: that C4 is the obvious choice for the OP. Number 2 doesn’t even seem right - the two can be integrated so that you could “program” automations for the lutrons in c4. e.g.,

http://www.adeluxconsulting.com/ra2-select-control4-integration-2/

[JSTRONG]

Have you programmed a control4 advanced lighting scene using  lutron dimmers ? 
 

I mean sure you can do it. But what happens ? 

[dinom]

15 minutes ago, JSTRONG said:

Have you programmed a control4 advanced lighting scene using  lutron dimmers ? 
 

I mean sure you can do it. But what happens ? 

Popcorn effect I’m guessing?

[salum]

5 hours ago, ejn1 said:

Lutron makes nice stuff but if you have a Control4 system, I personally would opt for C4...  Are you saying their Phase-Adaptive Dimmer is 1/2 the cost of a Control4 adaptive phase dimmer?   I would be surprised at that level of cost difference...

Also, just to note that you can program the C4 light switches to do additional things with double and triple taps..  Eg turn an entire room off with a double tap.   Not sure if the Lutron driver in C4 allows for that.

One of my dealers that quoted me priced out lutron dimmers the same as control4.  They didn't get into the technical details as to which line of dimmers the lutron or control4 ones were, but my guess was radiora2 since the dealer isn't authorized for homeworks according to the lutron dealer locator website.  I messaged them after I learned about the difference between forward and adaptive phase dimmers, and they said that the control4 dimmers were the original dimmers and not the essential line.

The second dealer quoted me the control4 essential line.  I just assumed they were giving me the same dimmers as the first dealer for half off...until I came to these forums and got educated.  I talked to several dealers around my area, none of them explained the difference (but again, I didn't know to ask until I came to this forum).

I have a 3rd dealer (who is not control4 authorized), who is insisting I not do control4 and just do lutron radiora2 and then do separate stuff and possibly RTI (I won't even get into this).

Too many people telling me too many different things.

But nonetheless it was good reading here because now I know to ask about dimmer types and I decided against the video matrix thats to the posters in this forum.

Now the question is do I roll the dice on the essential line of dimmers.

5 hours ago, JSTRONG said:

If your going to compare essential line to lutron it would not be ra2

maybe casetta. And I would not be using casetta in your 12000 sq ft home. 
 

just keep in mind if you don’t use c4 lighting 2 things happen

1. you lose your zigbee mesh so now you will need more c4 zigbee controllers 

2  lighting programming will be built and maintained in Luton programming   

 

Yea, casetta wasn't an option since it's more DIY and wouldn't handle as many devices in my home.

I don't mind the lutron devices, but I guess programming might be more complicated for the dealer (and hence more labor hours).  But whats interesting is the dealers I have talked to that are on the lutron dealer list are pushing lutron, the ones that aren't are pushing control4.

So who do I believe.

[msgreenf]

Have you ever had a Mercedes dealer tell you to buy bmw?

[wnpublic]

7 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

Have you ever had a Mercedes dealer tell you to buy bmw?

100% right

[AK1]

We deal with both Lutron and Control4. There is little benefit of adding Radio RA2 or Caseta to a new installation - Control4 makes more sense on all fronts. Caseta is very entry level and doesn't scale to large houses.

If you already have Lutron with or adding Control4 that is of course a different story.

[salum]

3 hours ago, msgreenf said:

Have you ever had a Mercedes dealer tell you to buy bmw?

That goes without saying.  Which is why I'm here to be educated.  The dealer that isn't a lutron dealer, is pushing for control4.  But the 2 dealers that are BOTH lutron and control4 dealers, they are pushing lutron.    I think I should have clarified that last point that the lutron dealer is both lutron and control4.

So then if you have a dealer that sells both Mercedes (lutron) and BMW (control4)...but is pushing Mercedes (lutron)...why?  Is it better or do they get more kickbacks from the factory.

[eggzlot]

43 minutes ago, salum said:

That goes without saying.  Which is why I'm here to be educated.  The dealer that isn't a lutron dealer, is pushing for control4.  But the 2 dealers that are BOTH lutron and control4 dealers, they are pushing lutron.    I think I should have clarified that last point that the lutron dealer is both lutron and control4.

So then if you have a dealer that sells both Mercedes (lutron) and BMW (control4)...but is pushing Mercedes (lutron)...why?  Is it better or do they get more kickbacks from the factory.

Yes could be profitability

in a c4 project the big benefit to doing lutron is if you rip out c4 you still have lutron.  It’s akin to a prenup maybe   always odd asking to talk about divorce before marriage.   People sign prenups and others do not.  Having lutron gives you a backup plan post c4.  But aren’t you hoping for a full happy c4 marriage?

the dealer who quoted essentials did it to win the job with keep pricing down.   And they aren’t “bad” devices but you lose some features which may or may not matter.   And you can mix and match essentials and regular line of lighting devices so keep that in mind - do not have to go 100% in one direction  though I’d probably keep a room to a specific line vs mix and match in the room.   To me the big downside w essentials is the lack of different LED color feedback on the rocker.   But in closets and other areas that is likely fine and you could go cheap there 

 

[AK1]

1 hour ago, salum said:

That goes without saying.  Which is why I'm here to be educated.  The dealer that isn't a lutron dealer, is pushing for control4.  But the 2 dealers that are BOTH lutron and control4 dealers, they are pushing lutron.    I think I should have clarified that last point that the lutron dealer is both lutron and control4.

So then if you have a dealer that sells both Mercedes (lutron) and BMW (control4)...but is pushing Mercedes (lutron)...why?  Is it better or do they get more kickbacks from the factory.

Again, if there is not existing Lutron it makes little sense to put it in as part of Control4 installation. You want your lighting to work flawlessly and integration of a third party product adds a layer of risk / complexity. And time to integrate will be more. And no Zigbee mesh. And Control4 keypads are nicer all over than RA2. And so on... Cost  should be neutral if not cheaper for Control4

[Cyknight]

6 hours ago, salum said:

So then if you have a dealer that sells both ...why?

Charge twice for labour.

Nothing at all against Lutron lighting, but from an END USER perspective, it doesn't make sense to have it installed NEW when doing Control4.

The 'you can use it if you rip out Control4' argument is of no value: nothing stops you from using C4 lighting on a singular controller and rip the rest of the automation out and there would be all but zero maintenance - and it would really be no different from 'just using the Lutron app' for lighting control.

Not to mention that means you're planning to fail, which is the only thing worse than failing to plan.If you HAVE Lutron, it's part of a house spec or MAYBE if you are PERSONALLY installing it - that's a different story and it will work just fine withing a C4 system.

Well or it's got some sort of aesthetic preference for you I suppose...

[salum]

Another question about control4.

One of my control4 dealer said he likes to keep security separate, and not integrate with control4.  His reasoning is that its a critical feature, and shouldn't be tied into your home automation.

Another control4 dealer said it's not a big deal.  If control4 goes down, your security still functions. 

Any compelling reason to go one way or the other?  To integrate or not integrate?

[eggzlot]

7 hours ago, Cyknight said:

 

The 'you can use it if you rip out Control4' argument is of no value: nothing stops you from using C4 lighting on a singular controller and rip the rest of the automation out and there would be all but zero maintenance - and it would really be no different from 'just using the Lutron app' for lighting control.

 

Unless you rip out c4 for savant or Crestron or elan or 1 of several diy systems

just saying...

[eggzlot]

4 hours ago, salum said:

Another question about control4.

One of my control4 dealer said he likes to keep security separate, and not integrate with control4.  His reasoning is that its a critical feature, and shouldn't be tied into your home automation.

Another control4 dealer said it's not a big deal.  If control4 goes down, your security still functions. 

Any compelling reason to go one way or the other?  To integrate or not integrate?

Sure if someone hacks your system it’s possible they could get access.  

ive been on this forum for 7 years and don’t recall 1 c4 hacking story.

and someone could bust down my front door easily or break into 5 very large walk in windows that flank the front of my house. 
 

if someone wants in they will figure it out.  My wife and I have a text message every time the alarm is disarmed.  So if one of us thinks it’s odd the alarm was just disarmed we can investigate further 

[C4 User]

4 hours ago, salum said:

Another question about control4.

One of my control4 dealer said he likes to keep security separate, and not integrate with control4.  His reasoning is that its a critical feature, and shouldn't be tied into your home automation.

Another control4 dealer said it's not a big deal.  If control4 goes down, your security still functions. 

Any compelling reason to go one way or the other?  To integrate or not integrate?

There are other posts on this forum that discuss the advantages of integrating security into C4, but summary is that doing so allows you to program off of the alarm state, and individual devices in your alarm system such as motion detectors, door status, window status, leak detectors, etc. As a user, I would recommend integrating the alarm.

[AK1]

4 hours ago, salum said:

Another question about control4.

One of my control4 dealer said he likes to keep security separate, and not integrate with control4.  His reasoning is that its a critical feature, and shouldn't be tied into your home automation.

Another control4 dealer said it's not a big deal.  If control4 goes down, your security still functions. 

Any compelling reason to go one way or the other?  To integrate or not integrate?

The one who won't integrate is incorrect and is foregoing a big set of convenience features for the homeowner. For example, turning on the lights if you enter the house at night with the alarm armed. Perhaps this dealer is inexperienced?

[Jedi]

On 3/19/2021 at 9:08 AM, AK1 said:

There are numerous adatptor kits to transfer RCA or optical audio over Cat5/6. Many on Amazon.

Yeah I see them, with so many I was wondering if anyone had experience with a brand and could refer a brand specifically. I hate getting gear and then it doesn’t integrate well or it fails shortly after install. 

[Cyknight]

13 hours ago, eggzlot said:

Unless you rip out c4 for savant or Crestron or elan or 1 of several diy systems

just saying...

Planning to fail.

[Cyknight]

18 hours ago, salum said:

One of my control4 dealer said he likes to keep security separate, and not integrate with control4.  His reasoning is that its a critical feature, and shouldn't be tied into your home automation.

What now?

I guess if you tie sensors into C4 directly and use C4 as a security system sure....but any dealer doing that, well....

Or maybe he means using C4 to monitor? Then yeah I suppose....

As per the other C4 dealer - a security panel (should) runs on it's own, with it's own back-up. It just ties into C4 for added functions and convenience.

[eggzlot]

48 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Planning to fail.

I agree hence my joke about it being akin to a prenup.  Yet people sign them all the time. 

[ejn1]

19 hours ago, salum said:

Another question about control4.

One of my control4 dealer said he likes to keep security separate, and not integrate with control4.  His reasoning is that its a critical feature, and shouldn't be tied into your home automation.

Another control4 dealer said it's not a big deal.  If control4 goes down, your security still functions. 

Any compelling reason to go one way or the other?  To integrate or not integrate?

Just for clarity,  you will have a separate alarm system from C4 and it will still work and function without C4.  It will have its own control panel,sensors, etc and will have most likely a monitoring service.   The question is do you integrate into C4 or not, but "integration" solely means can you view your alarm system in your C4, can you set it, disarm it, view zones... and can you program off of it eg have C4 send you an email when the alarm is triggered.   To do the latter,  make sure you choose an alarm system that has a C4 driver that can do these things.   I use DSC Neo and works great but there are a few others out there that you can search these forums and read about.

I think alarm integration into C4 is a hugely convenient option and highly recommend you plan to be able to do this...

 

[zaphod]

And to elaborate on the programming off of your security system - you can use motion sensors from your security system to triggger lights in C4.  Same with door sensors, window sensors, etc.  That can be very useful.