Should I stay or should I go?

[calcubot5000]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

A little under a year ago I purchased a house that came with a Control4 system installed - lighting, sound, some basic automation. This is my first time using Control4, and I have mixed feelings. After waffling on what to do for months, I figured it was finally time to ask the experts. Let me give some background info and then I'd welcome thoughts / ideas / suggestions / pie recipes.

First up, the current layout.

•     C4-HC800-BL Controller
•     C4-HC250-BL Controller (I'm unsure what the difference between the two controllers are. This one isn't hooked up right now so maybe it's just legacy?)
•     C4-16AMP3-B Multi-zone audio amp hooked up to 16 in-ceiling speakers
•     C4-WMB-B Wireless music bridge
•     20 single-button light switches
•     4 three-button keypads
•     3 six-button keypads

10 of the single-button switches are on the walls in the living areas. The other 10 are mounted on a wall in the utility room, but control lights in the living areas. From what I can tell, the 3- and 6- button switches wirelessly connect to the controller, and then the controller triggers the switches that are in the utility room.

I've been pretty invested in the Sonos ecosystem for many years and have disconnected all the audio equipment and switched all the speakers over to Sonos amps (and have been very happy with the results), but leaving the gear in this list in case it's helpful.

I'm a pretty technical guy - software engineer, love to tinker with home automation stuff, etc - and so it probably comes as no surprise that my gut is telling me I should pull the lighting system and replace it with something I can self-manage. BUT. I also realize that I'm frequently wrong, and maybe I'm not understanding the full capabilities or tooling available in Control4.

Here are my concerns with the current (lighting) setup:

• I don't (think I) have access to the tools needed to customize or reprogram the lighting / switch setup. The previous owner didn't share any of his account info with me, so I'm stuck with whatever config he had. I think?
• I have a hard time swallowing the idea of paying someone to change the config of something that I already own.
• I want to replace some of my dumb switches with smart ones, but again, I don't want to have to pay someone else to do this for me.
• Most of the time the light switches work fine, but every couple of weeks a button will fail to register immediately, or won't work, or does something unexpected like switching off every light all at once.
• I'm a little rural and when we have a power outage the system doesn't always come back up seamlessly. I've had to flip breakers to get the 6-button switches to reconnect a couple of times.
• I'm concerned about the longevity of the system. It's already 7-ish years old and when the hardware inevitably breaks half my lights are going to stop working and I won't be able to fix it without calling in a third party.
• Seriously, I really hate the idea of relying on someone else to fix/change things that I could easily do myself if I just had access.

So my questions for you are:

1. Should I stay with Control4 or replace it with something else?
2. If I stay, how do I address my concerns?
3. If I go, how the hell do I replace the 3- and 6- button switches? Is there some other system that has multi-button keypads that can wirelessly trigger switches mounted somewhere else?

Okay phew, this turned into a wall of text. Hopefully this explains the current setup and gets all my brain thoughts out. I really am open to ideas and suggestions here and welcome any and all input. Am I thinking about this wrong? Am I nuts?

Help me, Control4 wizards; you're my only hope.

[-defunct-]

If you want DIY, Control4 is not the solution you want. It is not a DIY solution, it is a professionally installed and maintained system.

[Dave w]

22 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

If you want DIY, Control4 is not the solution you want. It is not a DIY solution, it is a professionally installed and maintained system.

True, but Home Edition will allow DIYers to do tons for their own tweaking and updating and there are tons of people here and elsewhere who can assist through remote programming for the changes you can't do with HE.  So in the end, it is decently DIY friendly. 

Replacing depends on your budget.  You could simply upgrade the controller to an EA3 and take over the system with your own HE account. See ow that goes for a while and then decide.  You can always sell the EA3 if you decide its not for you.  This will solve many of the issues you listed. 

You also should not need to switch breakers after an outage.  Just reboot your router and then the controller.  Everything else will come back up fully once the ZigBee network reconnects. 

[-defunct-]

Composer HE does exist, but it isn't the level of access OP desires. It only allows configuration of drivers, local media (if used), and programming.

 

Adding light switches or devices/drivers requires Pro. Remote programmers are available, but, generally, dealers are supposed to service only their respective areas unless given approval. It violates the dealer code of conduct if done without approval from Control4.

[zaphod]

You can do (almost) all of the reprogramming of keypads, dimmers and switches.  The only issue that you may have is that their may be some bindings that you can't change in Composer HE.

In terms of adding more smart lights, you can buy them used or buy them off a dealer and physically wire them in.  Then you can get one of the remote dealers here on the forum to add them into your system.  That is pretty fast to do.

Given some of the equipment that you have, you may be on OS2.X.  The HC-250 can't be used in OS3 which came out a couple of years ago.  The HC-800 can still act as your main controller for the time being.  Your amp is actually pretty solid, but you don't need it since you are a Sonos user.  You could be able to get some cash for it on ebay, etc

[therockhr]

38 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

Adding light switches or devices/drivers requires Pro. Remote programmers are available, but, generally, dealers are supposed to service only their respective areas unless given approval. It violates the dealer code of conduct if done without approval from Control4.

Considering the "pro" who installed this system put a bank of wireless switches in a utility room I would be looking for someone else to help if he wants to stay control4. I will never understand the need for a bank of wireless switches.

My advice, if you are already moving away from audio then you might want to go ahead and move away the lighting as well. The strength of Control4 over other systems is the integration of audio and video in 1 app/system. If you dont want AV then the lighting is just an expensive add on. Move the lighting to Lutron or something and then you can have someone add it back for you if you want it into the Control4 system. Problem is that you are still going to have that silly bank of wireless switches no matter the system you move to unless you move to a panelized system. it might also be tough because you will have to have some kind of keypad because again, they did the bank of switches instead of installing them like normal in the areas. so you will have to replace it with a system that has keypads or redo the wiring (which Im sure would be a nightmare). whoever installed the system didnt make it easy for you.

[wnpublic]

Given what you’ve said - migrate to Home Assistant. If you are willing to DIY - you won’t look back. 

[-defunct-]

Be wary of Home Assistant integration. It is not authorized and uses a hacked implementation. Control4 is aware of the problem and may shut it down.

[ekohn00]

1 hour ago, calcubot5000 said:

 

• I want to replace some of my dumb switches with smart ones, but again, I don't want to have to pay someone else to do this for me.
•  

i'd look to move the switches int he closet to replace dump switches. You can probably do all the work and use a remote dealer to do all your bindings.

If you're using your own Sonus speakers in the rooms that already have in-ceiling speakers, that might be a waste (unless the ceiling speaker just suck). Otherwise, you could look to integrate the sonus. (i dont have sonus, but think it's doable).

 

 

[videostorm]

You guys all missed the obvious answer 

"If you go there will be trouble.... If you stay it will be double..."

I know, no help.  But it had to be said.

[therockhr]

47 minutes ago, wnpublic said:

Given what you’ve said - migrate to Home Assistant. If you are willing to DIY - you won’t look back. 

Are you saying to just use Home Assistant as a front end to control4 or are you saying to migrate away from Control4 and to home assistant? Because they will still need a dealer if using home assistant as a front end to C4. If you are saying the latter then yeah it is an option but they will still need another lighting system regardless.

44 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

Be wary of Home Assistant integration. It is not authorized and uses a hacked implementation. Control4 is aware of the problem and may shut it down.

Why on earth would Control4 care about that?

[-defunct-]

1 minute ago, therockhr said:

Why on earth would Control4 care about that?

Because it is unauthorized and utilizes a hack that was reported.

Step 1 for moving to secure IoT is ensuring only what is expected to connect can actually connect.

My suggestion to whoever develops the Home Assistant, if they watch here, is to reach out and get Control4's approval and proper authorization.

[RAV]

You have a Control4 lighting system at this point. That's OK.

To fix your system, you may need to add a controller or two, or an update, to address why some of the keypads aren't coming back on line. Possible they are at the fringe of the zigbee mesh, and based on the install was done with banks in closets (not recommended), it sounds likely that's the issue.
To expand your system, you need more Control4 switches, and someone to add them to the system.
To modify your programming, you need Composer Home Edition, and possibly some tweaks to your existing system so you have the most options available to you in HE.
Upgrading to OS3 or EA isn't required, that's your choice, and for lighting it's mostly cosmetics as your HC800 is a great processor.

 

On to replacing your system.

That's going to need Lutron Radio RA2 or Caseta.
You need keypads that can control remote switches (or Pico Remotes in the case of Caseta, which can be wall mounted like a keypad).
Otherwise you loose that control ability, and have to use Apps and Voice for the most part.

If you were going to add 30 switches, to your home, than it's certainly worth the swap over for your want of dealer free.
if you are wanting 10 more switches, than breakout the spreadsheets and compare the costs, vs the I need a dealer to add the switches part.

[Cyknight]

21 minutes ago, therockhr said:

 

Why on earth would Control4 care about that?

Assuming you're using Home Assistant to trigger CONTROL4 devices, they would indeed care, and would not want back-door methods to be used that could jeopardize 'proper' integration and existing or in-the-works partnerships/co-operations (see Sonos, MyQ and others).

If you're using it stand-alone for some other lighting - they wouldn't care of course.

[therockhr]

33 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Assuming you're using Home Assistant to trigger CONTROL4 devices, they would indeed care, and would not want back-door methods to be used that could jeopardize 'proper' integration and existing or in-the-works partnerships/co-operations (see Sonos, MyQ and others).

If you're using it stand-alone for some other lighting - they wouldn't care of course.

 

53 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

Because it is unauthorized and utilizes a hack that was reported.

Step 1 for moving to secure IoT is ensuring only what is expected to connect can actually connect.

My suggestion to whoever develops the Home Assistant, if they watch here, is to reach out and get Control4's approval and proper authorization.

I guess I should have done some more digging. I assumed the home assistant integration was using an available rest api and it had some security around it. My mistake.

[calcubot5000]

30 minutes ago, RAV said:

To modify your programming, you need Composer Home Edition, and possibly some tweaks to your existing system so you have the most options available to you in HE.
Upgrading to OS3 or EA isn't required, that's your choice, and for lighting it's mostly cosmetics as your HC800 is a great processor.

As I've started to price out the cost of switching everything over to something else it's making me think I should give Composer Home Edition and see whether that scratches my itch for now. I'm going to need a dealer to grant me access to the account that they set up for the previous owner, correct? Like others have said I'm inclined NOT to use that dealer again given the crazy setup they've built here. Any advice for how to get this moving?

[RyanE]

22 minutes ago, calcubot5000 said:

As I've started to price out the cost of switching everything over to something else it's making me think I should give Composer Home Edition and see whether that scratches my itch for now.

This makes most sense to me, since worst case, you're no worse off.

As far as advice, I'd go with a forum dealer to have them get it 'up and running' to find any issues you can't resolve yourself.

Also, when you buy Composer HE (which any of the forum dealers can sell you), you also get a year of 4Sight, so you can remotely access your system (less valuable to you with primarily only lights, but still could be useful).

RyanE

[wnpublic]

1 hour ago, Dunamivora said:

My suggestion to whoever develops the Home Assistant, if they watch here, is to reach out and get Control4's approval and proper authorization.

this is the funniest post in some time.  Way to keep up.

[wnpublic]

1 hour ago, therockhr said:

Are you saying to just use Home Assistant as a front end to control4 or are you saying to migrate away from Control4 and to home assistant? Because they will still need a dealer if using home assistant as a front end to C4. If you are saying the latter then yeah it is an option but they will still need another lighting system regardless.

Optimally, rip it out.  Smart lighting is not that complicated - just move to zwave like Inovelli, or if you must have a dealer system, get Lutron or what have you.  For me, house 1 is HA overlaid on Control4 lighting. House 2 is pure Home Assistant, and zwave+ lighting controlled by HA.  Both are trouble free.

I'm sure Control4 could revise the Rest API to break the integration, but this would require them to rearchitect their own apps too.  Given they still haven't managed to integrate the intercom into the app, hard to get worried about them doing anything to the app  

[wnpublic]

1 hour ago, Cyknight said:

Assuming you're using Home Assistant to trigger CONTROL4 devices, they would indeed care, and would not want back-door methods to be used that could jeopardize 'proper' integration and existing or in-the-works partnerships/co-operations (see Sonos, MyQ and others).

If you're using it stand-alone for some other lighting - they wouldn't care of course.

The OS2-based integration/"hack" has been around since 2018, haven't seen the top men at C4 shut it down yet....the REST API integration is newer.

[-defunct-]

Sounds like a call out and a challenge.

Honestly would have hoped you would have reached out like an honest and worthy integrator rather than shrug it off like it's moral.

[therockhr]

3 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

Sounds like a call out and a challenge.

Honestly would have hoped you would have reached out like an honest and worthy integrator rather than shrug it off like it's moral.

Yeah its not like Control4 has ever used undocumented API's to talk to devices before......

[-defunct-]

Just now, therockhr said:

Yeah its not like Control4 has ever used undocumented API's to talk to devices before......

In the past, sure. Now? Nope. Those got dismantled or deprecated.

Control4 has never done MitM to find the info to control a device with stolen auth information though.

Extra Vegetables and other driver developers have, but all of those EV drivers are deprecated and unsupported.

[therockhr]

1 minute ago, Dunamivora said:

In the past, sure. Now? Nope. Those got dismantled or deprecated.

Control4 has never done MitM to find the info to control a device with stolen auth information though.

Extra Vegetables and other driver developers have, but all of those EV drivers are deprecated and unsupported.

So considering their past, instead of throwing around threats of shutting the integration down, Control4 (you seem to speak on their behalf a lot so i am assuming you either work there is at least have contacts) should be understanding and maybe publish some official docs or at the least just pretend to not care.

[RyanE]

A lot of assumptions and speculation in this thread.

RyanE