Replacing Ruckus

[msgreenf]

31 minutes ago, shawkyns said:

I cant, that is the point.  Unless you are willing to sign up for some ridiculous service plan, which might make sense in a enterprise environment, ruckus wont cover a larger home with any efficiency.  If I had unlimited funds, I would have paid the fees they charge and out in two or three AP's from ruckus with a zonecontroller to manage it, but in the long term, heck even in the short term that would have been more expensive then just ripping them out and replacing them with distributed AP's, running UBNT, so no service cost.

the entire unifi system cost less than the cost of the ruckus AP I was using, and the cover is much better.  I also considered cisco, but that had the same problems as the ruckus, expensive service contracts, super high up front cost.

but how is that a fair comparison?  You stated that putting Unifi APs in every room is better then one Ruckus AP.  Well no kidding.  Using one AP to cover an entire house is like using a smart car to deliver amazon packages - ain't gonna work...

[lippavisual]

And those service contracts you keep talking about is certainly coming from your installer because that is not a requirement from Ruckus.

[ejn1]

2 hours ago, shawkyns said:

I cant, that is the point.  Unless you are willing to sign up for some ridiculous service plan, which might make sense in a enterprise environment, ruckus wont cover a larger home with any efficiency.  If I had unlimited funds, I would have paid the fees they charge and out in two or three AP's from ruckus with a zonecontroller to manage it, but in the long term, heck even in the short term that would have been more expensive then just ripping them out and replacing them with distributed AP's, running UBNT, so no service cost.

the entire unifi system cost less than the cost of the ruckus AP I was using, and the cover is much better.  I also considered cisco, but that had the same problems as the ruckus, expensive service contracts, super high up front cost.

Not sure I'm following.   I have 4 Ruckus APs on Unleashed with no service plan and no controllers needed.   Ruckus provides free firmware updates as well.   The only thing they don't do is sit on the phone with you and troubleshoot issues without a service plan (good luck getting that with Ubiquiti either and for those who would purchase, they dont offer).   

[Control4Savant]

On 10/12/2021 at 5:59 AM, msgreenf said:

but how is that a fair comparison?  You stated that putting Unifi APs in every room is better then one Ruckus AP.  Well no kidding.  Using one AP to cover an entire house is like using a smart car to deliver amazon packages - ain't gonna work...

Agreed... but I think thats THE point. You should have multiple APs for an advanced high speed network. If AP brand #1 is 4x less cost and has the same performance it would be silly to buy the more expensive APs. It's also then a benefit to having the same managed switches and routing that Rukus can not provide.  

Ubiquity does pretty much have zero corp. "support"... it's the power user base that can help get quick answers to some of the most complicated networking stuff.

[ejn1]

4 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

Agreed... but I think thats THE point. You should have multiple APs for an advanced high speed network. If AP brand #1 is 4x less cost and has the same performance it would be silly to buy the more expensive APs. It's also then a benefit to having the same managed switches and routing that Rukus can not provide.  

Ubiquity does pretty much have zero corp. "support"... it's the power user base that can help get quick answers to some of the most complicated networking stuff.

The point on number of APs is valid, but i think we are missing a critical point...  The Ruckus controller handles all of the client handoffs and settings interaction between APs and thats also a critical element of a multiAP environment.   As much as I like Unifi and the value it offers,  its controller software is not in the same league as Ruckus.   So sure, put a Unifi AP in every room and go stand underneath it and test speed, it will measure well but move around the home and track how the controller moves APs with you, you will find the average strength throughout higher with the Ruckus system imho.   Now is Unifi is good "enough" , there is no question it is.   Many folks with Ruckus don't want good enough though.

[lippavisual]

No need for ZoneDirector either, flash unleashed firmware to it and be done.

[shawkyns]

On 10/12/2021 at 5:02 AM, ejn1 said:

Not sure I'm following.   I have 4 Ruckus APs on Unleashed with no service plan and no controllers needed.   Ruckus provides free firmware updates as well.   The only thing they don't do is sit on the phone with you and troubleshoot issues without a service plan (good luck getting that with Ubiquiti either and for those who would purchase, they dont offer).   

agree, but unleashed is relatively new for ruckus. not an option when I had my first one or second. back then they wouldnt even upgrade the firmware without a service plan. 

look, if what you have works for you, then great.. but the OP was asking about getting out of ruckus for UNIFI.. I am offering a point of view.  been there, done that.  I am not arguing that if I had four ruckus AP's I probably would NOT have switched IF unleashed had been an option, but then again I would have had to buy at least three more ruckus AP at about a grand each, and at the time a zonnecontroller as well,  even without that UNIFI still offers better cover and throughput with multiple AP's, and at a fraction of the cost. I can upgrade everything to WIFI6 once they become available and still be at less than a quarter of the cost of a new ruckus unit.

the truth, from my point of view, is that you are paying a premium for ruckus. I dont think that the performance justifies that, and I dont know that is is THAT much better than unifi.  There used to be a website, forget the name, that compared the performance of various networking products.. they did a UNIFI AP vs a Ruckus AP at one point, and I dont remember the performance being that much better to justify the 4x cost premium. cant find the website now though, I think it got pulled years ago.

[ejn1]

10 hours ago, shawkyns said:

agree, but unleashed is relatively new for ruckus. not an option when I had my first one or second. back then they wouldnt even upgrade the firmware without a service plan. 

look, if what you have works for you, then great.. but the OP was asking about getting out of ruckus for UNIFI.. I am offering a point of view.  been there, done that.  I am not arguing that if I had four ruckus AP's I probably would NOT have switched IF unleashed had been an option, but then again I would have had to buy at least three more ruckus AP at about a grand each, and at the time a zonnecontroller as well,  even without that UNIFI still offers better cover and throughput with multiple AP's, and at a fraction of the cost. I can upgrade everything to WIFI6 once they become available and still be at less than a quarter of the cost of a new ruckus unit.

the truth, from my point of view, is that you are paying a premium for ruckus. I dont think that the performance justifies that, and I dont know that is is THAT much better than unifi.  There used to be a website, forget the name, that compared the performance of various networking products.. they did a UNIFI AP vs a Ruckus AP at one point, and I dont remember the performance being that much better to justify the 4x cost premium. cant find the website now though, I think it got pulled years ago.

Thanks, I was just clarifying for others outside of the OP that may read and get the wrong takeaway around costs.  I'm a big Unifi fan and the gap is closing with the latest round of APs and surely if comparing list to list price on cost/benefit ratio,  Unifi wins in my view as well.   But, if you are paying list for Ruckus gear, you are likely the worst purchaser on the planet or have monopoly money and don't care .   Also, having a multiple AP Unifi setup with their controller (which I still use for backbone network) is a large gap, imho with Unifi still versus Ruckus.    Tracking multiple client movements and see how Ruckus does handoffs to stay at max strength and also see how quick it move devices to the proper AP and manages interference / bands between APs.   Was just pointing out that just standing near a single AP and speed testing only tells a portion of the performance story.    

If the OP prefers to drive a Ford over a Porsche, that's personal preference

[CTMatthew]

The UniFi v. Ruckus debate comes down to cost more than many would like it to.

For the record we sell both. We have clients for both. But what sorts those clients isn't a technological need, but a budget. The reality is that home networking requires a fraction of what either of these companies can do and because these networks remain largely un-adminstered for years and years after installation they also benefit from less configuration and not more. 

I've also been impressed with UniFi when we've done 1-1 swaps and generally seen better performance from their newer waps than even current Ruckus. Toward the end of the summer we wound up pulling out 5x 650s and put in the same number of UniFi APs and got better coverage and 200Mbps speed tests. That's definitely not the norm, but shows that they're a heck of a lot closer in performance than many folks would credit. 

[ekohn00]

55 minutes ago, CTMatthew said:

these networks remain largely un-adminstered for years and years after installation they also benefit from less configuration and not more. 

 

well there are usernames and passwords, perhaps a few SSIDs, and maybe some VLANS....but yes nothing like a commercial environment.

We do a lot of Cisco....want to talk about unlimited amazing possibilities, and rarely ever used......  And yes way way $$$$$$$

[ejn1]

6 hours ago, ekohn00 said:

well there are usernames and passwords, perhaps a few SSIDs, and maybe some VLANS....but yes nothing like a commercial environment.

We do a lot of Cisco....want to talk about unlimited amazing possibilities, and rarely ever used......  And yes way way $$$$$$$

I think some folks really value the UNIFI gui as more than just eye candy.   I can easily find devices, find which switch and which port they are located, easily power cycle POE on a single port, see other family members systems and help with remote troubleshooting,  set VLANs by port (vs doing in traditional manner of tagging and untagging) easily see WAN IPs to better enable VPN access, etc etc.   I use the Unifi App, GUI and cloud access all the time and its not just a cosmetic thing.

[ekohn00]

10 hours ago, ejn1 said:

I think some folks really value the UNIFI gui as more than just eye candy.   I can easily find devices, find which switch and which port they are located, easily power cycle POE on a single port, see other family members systems and help with remote troubleshooting,  set VLANs by port (vs doing in traditional manner of tagging and untagging) easily see WAN IPs to better enable VPN access, etc etc.   I use the Unifi App, GUI and cloud access all the time and its not just a cosmetic thing.

Totally agree, our home is all Unify now, switches and WAPs. The interface does help a lot with trouble shooting as well as making the management easy. I'd say the FW features have some work to do, but for the price, it's very good.

 

[Andrew luecke]

Honestly, a lot of it comes down to price, consistency, troubleshooting, security, performance imho. 

Ubiquiti is cheaper than Ruckus, Ruckus has lower risk for firmware,  Ubiquiti controller is fairly awesome (and supports their routers too), Ruckus security is better (they support proper WIPS, whereas even the UAP-SHD has imho fake WIPS, and Ruckus probably takes vulnerabilities more seriously, and I think they probably beat Ubiquiti to WPA3 too), and the maximum throughput of Ruckus is obviously higher at this time (in a high density environment, at this time it might perform better too handling the noise. In most home environments, noise is probably less of an issue).

In regards to roaming, both support 802.11k so I'd actually be fairly surprised if Roaming performance was any different for modern devices (as 802.11k allows devices to see how strong the signal being received by the AP is, and vice versa, they can already see). Apple only starts roaming at -70db.  Roaming on both brands is fine..  

Ubiquiti is good if you know what you're doing with it, but if you're not good at networking, Ruckus might be better.  Don't touch Aruba at all unless you know what you're doing. Snap One owns Access Networks though so if you want Ruckus, you could buy from Access Networks directly.

On a low density home network, both have their own strengths. If price isn't an issue though, Ruckus these days.. 

The MAIN risk to manage is that you need to ensure you put sufficient AP's in. I've come across many jobs where installers installed enterprise products like Aruba and Ruckus, but skimped on them (because the price was more expensive), and so because there were less AP's, coverage in some areas became flaky. If you're going to install 15 Ubiquiti AP's, make sure you assume the same number of Ruckus might be needed (I've been to so many houses where top of the line AP's were used.. But there weren't enough of them). 

[LollerAgent]

4 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

The MAIN risk to manage is that you need to ensure you put sufficient AP's in. I've come across many jobs where installers installed enterprise products like Aruba and Ruckus, but skimped on them (because the price was more expensive), and so because there were less AP's, coverage in some areas became flaky. If you're going to install 15 Ubiquiti AP's, make sure you assume the same number of Ruckus might be needed (I've been to so many houses where top of the line AP's were used.. But there weren't enough of them). 

I see this way too often, even with less expensive gear.  People see marketing terminology like "LONG RANGE," etc and think they can install one WAP to cover 3500 sqft.  This doesn't work - especially on 802.11ac and other 5ghz platforms.  

[ejn1]

9 minutes ago, LollerAgent said:

I see this way too often, even with less expensive gear.  People see marketing terminology like "LONG RANGE," etc and think they can install one WAP to cover 3500 sqft.  This doesn't work - especially on 802.11ac and other 5ghz platforms.  

Agree, it especially doesnt work if you want high throughput speeds as there is no replacement for proximity to a WAP.   The issue I found with Unifi WAPs is that the controller software doesnt do a great job always of managing the interference (automatically adjusting freqs and antenna power) of having too many or too close WAPs so you have to get into manual settings and it becomes tricky for someone inexperienced.   This is where Ruckus does a much better job imo.    As said above,  even though Ruckus WAPs are targetted for more of an enterprise setting, they are much easier to deploy for a homeowner and all your left with is placement and how many to have.