C4 lighting or Lutron RA3 - request for views?

[Charlie Mackenzie]

I will keep this short - we are looking to add either C4 switches and dimmers or Lutron. I am resistant to have C4 handle everything as that places all eggs in one basket, but have also had more glitches with C4 in other areas making me more hesitant - all resolved, but don't really want to have glitches with core things like lighting - no matter how solid it is. 

The question I am trying to answer is does anyone have any experience with both and might have a recommendation? I would like C4 to handle the control either way, but the fact that it is Lutron hardware means that if we decide C4 should no longer be in our house, we are at least not replacing the lighting. So, from this standpoint, I am inclined to go Lutron RA3. If C4/SNAP cease to exist some day (not saying they will, but they may decide to discontinue service) if acquired by someone else, go under (its possible), or decide that farming is more profitable and become a crop company, my lights are still independent - I am clearly aware this is not likely, but banks, insurance companies and other companies many times their size do in fact discontinue service or go under - so just considering all outcomes.

Requirements:

• Away button on keypad for when leaving house to turn lights off (not connected to Alarm system and wont be) - say with coming home.
• Ability to turn lights on or off in each room remotely via other keypads or C4
• Occupancy sensors for bathrooms in the night
• Approximately 45 dimmers and 30 switches required.

Looking for views to see if people who have experience with both see drawbacks to going the Lutron route.

Really appreciate any feedback/guidance.

 

 Charlie - NYC

Equipment - 2x EA5, CA1, Audio Matrix, 3x 8 zone amps, LUMA NVR, 3x Yamaha AVRs, Araknis network equipment (2x 24 POE switch, Router, 12 Switch), Pakedge PDU, APC, 3x tabletop C4 screens.  

 

[RAV]

It'll just cost you more.

But sounds like your mind is made up to use Lutron. Extra time in programing, hardare a little more with duplication of processors, but you can accomplish what you want, Lutron integration is excellent.

The grey area is keypads. If you want them to control your music system volume and what not, then Control4 keypads are more adept. If it's just a couple buttons for away to turn down heat etc, you could stay with Lutron for keypads.

[LollerAgent]

I went with RA2 Select, and I'm glad I did for reasons that you highlighted.  I would probably go with RA3 now (drivers should be available soon).  I really don't like the look of the C4 switches, but that has improved (in my opinion) with the new contemporary line.  The RA3 dimmer bars look super cool, though.

I supplement Lutron with C4 keypads in several locations.  They activate lighting scenes on Lutron loads, give me "Away" buttons, provide media control, operate shades, etc.  If you do choose Lutron, I would highly recommend doing the same.

C4 switches do act as Zigbee extenders (probably the wrong term) and make your mesh stronger which you will lose if you go with Lutron.  But, this has not been a problem for me because I have C4 keypads in a few select locations.  You also don't get the programmable LEDs on the C4 switches or the double/triple tap programming that you would get if you had C4.

Overall, I'm very happy with Lutron, and it's been rock solid - both functionality-wise and in it's integration with C4.  With that being said, I do believe C4 lighting is one of their core strengths and I'm not sure you would not be disappointed either way.

[msgreenf]

5 minutes ago, LollerAgent said:

Zigbee extenders

repeaters - not extenders

[Charlie Mackenzie]

54 minutes ago, RAV said:

It'll just cost you more.

But sounds like your mind is made up to use Lutron. Extra time in programing, hardare a little more with duplication of processors, but you can accomplish what you want, Lutron integration is excellent.

The grey area is keypads. If you want them to control your music system volume and what not, then Control4 keypads are more adept. If it's just a couple buttons for away to turn down heat etc, you could stay with Lutron for keypads.

Thank you for this - no need to media control on these. Just lighting. This was most helpful. 

[Charlie Mackenzie]

53 minutes ago, LollerAgent said:

I went with RA2 Select, and I'm glad I did for reasons that you highlighted.  I would probably go with RA3 now (drivers should be available soon).  I really don't like the look of the C4 switches, but that has improved (in my opinion) with the new contemporary line.  The RA3 dimmer bars look super cool, though.

I supplement Lutron with C4 keypads in several locations.  They activate lighting scenes on Lutron loads, give me "Away" buttons, provide media control, operate shades, etc.  If you do choose Lutron, I would highly recommend doing the same.

C4 switches do act as Zigbee extenders (probably the wrong term) and make your mesh stronger which you will lose if you go with Lutron.  But, this has not been a problem for me because I have C4 keypads in a few select locations.  You also don't get the programmable LEDs on the C4 switches or the double/triple tap programming that you would get if you had C4.

Overall, I'm very happy with Lutron, and it's been rock solid - both functionality-wise and in it's integration with C4.  With that being said, I do believe C4 lighting is one of their core strengths and I'm not sure you would be disappointed either way.

Thanks for this detailed response - this answered my exact question. I will take the advice and augment with a few C4 keypads - but will do a dimmer/keypad combo so to not need to insert a new switch in the gang. 

Really appreciate all the comments. 

[Cyknight]

Just to play devil's advocate - you do realize your argumentation for C4 'going under' would apply in the same way for Lutron?

Neither are particularly likely at this point, but using it as an argument is a little moot.

And if either goes down, it'll likely take under 6 months for some company to create a 3rd party controller for the lighting either way.

Even if you ditch C4 for something else, nothing prevents a single C4 controller to just control the lights, just like you'd need a Lutron controller of some sort to make it work stand alone.

 

Understand that I'm not arguing against using Lutron, nor against the fact that it would allow you a measure of flexibility if CHANGING control systems - let alone arguing against aesthetics. Those are valid reasons as such.

Just pointing out that the argument for a company going under/changing etc etc, possibly, maybe, in some unknown future is not argument at all (assuming there are no particular signs it will)- unless it's an argument to not use smart lighting at all.

Just because a company that made a product ceases to exist, doesn't mean their hardware just stops working either (well unless it's all cloud based, but that's a whole other discussion).

 

I think you'll likely find RA3 to work well with C4 - though it's still an unknown as such - once drivers are finished.

[istreich]

Can't comment on Ra3 obviously but I have been very happy with my Lutron Ra2/Control4 mixed set-up. Lutron lighting control is bulletproof and very reliable. Integration between both systems is seamless (there are a few best practices to be aware such as the use of phantom buttons to avoid popcorn effect for ex) and you can easily mix and match keypads and other controlling devices depending on what you are looking for. 

With online (free and premium) training (depending on the version of the software, at least for Ra2), homeowners can program their system themselves and have full control. 

If I had to do it again, I would not hesitate! The quality and flexibility of Lutron for lighting control combined with Control4 broad capability is a perfect fit. 

I have nothing against Control4 lighting capability (except personal preference for Lutron dimmers design) and I can see both options being acceptable. One advantage though going Lutron is that you can have consistent dimmers look across the house even if you don't automate every single one on day one. You can buy "basic" maestro dimmers for $15 for areas that don't necessarily need to be controlled as often. They will look identical to your Ra2 ones. And you can pick any color you want! Big budget impact...

By the way, any company can go under... but I think the odds of either Lutron or Control4 doing so are slim. Lutron is pretty established and has a solid business in traditional lighting control. Control4 is now part of SnapOne which went public last summer and was owned by a top Private Equity firm that diversified and grew its business.

Don't hesitate to ask for help or experience sharing as you move forward. Enjoy!

[Charlie Mackenzie]

On 1/21/2022 at 5:11 PM, istreich said:

Can't comment on Ra3 obviously but I have been very happy with my Lutron Ra2/Control4 mixed set-up. Lutron lighting control is bulletproof and very reliable. Integration between both systems is seamless (there are a few best practices to be aware such as the use of phantom buttons to avoid popcorn effect for ex) and you can easily mix and match keypads and other controlling devices depending on what you are looking for. 

With online (free and premium) training (depending on the version of the software, at least for Ra2), homeowners can program their system themselves and have full control. 

If I had to do it again, I would not hesitate! The quality and flexibility of Lutron for lighting control combined with Control4 broad capability is a perfect fit. 

I have nothing against Control4 lighting capability (except personal preference for Lutron dimmers design) and I can see both options being acceptable. One advantage though going Lutron is that you can have consistent dimmers look across the house even if you don't automate every single one on day one. You can buy "basic" maestro dimmers for $15 for areas that don't necessarily need to be controlled as often. They will look identical to your Ra2 ones. And you can pick any color you want! Big budget impact...

By the way, any company can go under... but I think the odds of either Lutron or Control4 doing so are slim. Lutron is pretty established and has a solid business in traditional lighting control. Control4 is now part of SnapOne which went public last summer and was owned by a top Private Equity firm that diversified and grew its business.

Don't hesitate to ask for help or experience sharing as you move forward. Enjoy!

Thanks - on the companies going under - I get it - it is unlikely - but lots do. It was more C4 seems to be a bit glitchy in some other aspects and I am nervous I could pull the plug some day. Lutron, in a worse case scenario ceases to exist, the dimmers still work as normal dimmers and one can turn them on with the buttons in each room. I realize C4 is the same, but I have more faith in a basic processor for lights lasting longer than C4 which would be needed for any keypads. It was more to just not have my entire house's basic functions on a single vendor. A friend up state pulled his entire C4 system out as it was too glitchy and the dealers (multiple) could not correct for what he felt were some basics. So, he wished he had done Lutron, but the C4 dimmers still work as a stand alone item.

I really appreciate all the comments. Based on my read of the comments, I will likely go with Lutron. 

[Jeff W]

I prefer the Lutron programming capabilities.  In my opinion, it's better, faster, easier and you can create better lighting scenes. 

The LED feedback offers multiple options that automatically program itself based on what you select.

Ra3 have less buttons per keypad, You'll want to look at scene based lighting designs rather than fixture based buttons.

There is no customer based programming/training for Ra3 software.  Ra2 and Ra3 use different software, they are completely different beasts.  If you go with Ra3 you'll want to find someone who is very familiar with the design software because it's a big jump from the Ra2 software. Ra3 requires your dealer to get certified before they can install Ra3.

With that said, clients can change much of the keypad programming through the Lutron connect app though (just not everything).

You cannot order color change kits for Ra3.  Once you buy your color, you're stuck with it unless you buy a new unit/new color.  

[msgreenf]

What makes scenes better?

[LollerAgent]

11 hours ago, Jeff W said:

The LED feedback offers multiple options that automatically program itself based on what you select.

What do you mean by this?

[ILoveC4]

I’ve got no experience with Lutron, but have put C4 lighting in 4 homes at this point and unless something changes, I’ll do it in my 5th home (which is planned but is inevitable).

It is rock solid and out of what is probably close to 1,000 dimmers/switches/keypads (spanning every generation of product) I’ve had 1 fail, and it was my fault. I love the engravable keypads, the backlit lettering, the customizable LEDs, etc…

[Jeff W]

1 hour ago, LollerAgent said:

What do you mean by this?

Ra2 has the following LED logic

• Path of light
• Single/Multi-room scene
• Toggle control / room monitoring
• Shade tilt  view toggle
• Shade toggle
• Green mode
• Time clock mode

 

Ra3 has the following LED logic

• Single Action
• Toggle

 

Homeworks has the following LED logic

Depending on what button type you select Single Action, Toggle, Dual, Raise, Lower you will have the following options.

• Room
• Scene
• Pathway
• Momentary on when pressed
• Via integration
• Defined by sequence

 

The LED on the button will turn on if lights are at their programmed state.  There is no programming required to control the LED.  

 

[Jeff W]

14 hours ago, msgreenf said:

What makes scenes better?

Toggle based keypad buttons are no better than a dimmer or a switch.  You're simply turning on the light.  Having toggle based buttons is like having an oven that only does 0F or 550F or a car that is either stopped or warp speed.  It doesn't make much sense.

Scenes based lighting designs gives customers a more reliable, predictable better lighting experience.  In medium - large rooms where there are multiple fixtures, it doesn't make sense to have one button per fixture and making everything toggle based.  You stand at the keypad every time pressing multiple buttons to accomplish a single button press can achieve.

If you use scene based lighting designs, you get the exact same results every time.  It gives the home a more luxury feeling. Trust me on this!  With that said the Palladiom and Ra3 keypads are more challenging to design because they have fewer buttons than the standard 6 button keypad. 

I spent a week taking lighting design courses at Lutron and it changed my life. 

[msgreenf]

1 minute ago, Jeff W said:

Toggle based keypad buttons are no better than a dimmer or a switch.  You're simply turning on the light.  Having toggle based buttons is like having an oven that only does 0F or 550F or a car that is either stopped or warp speed.  It doesn't make much sense.

Scenes based lighting designs gives customers a more reliable, predictable better lighting experience.  In medium - large rooms where there are multiple fixtures, it doesn't make sense to have one button per fixture and making everything toggle based.  You stand at the keypad every time pressing multiple buttons to accomplish a single button press can achieve.

If you use scene based lighting designs, you get the exact same results every time.  It gives the home a more luxury feeling. Trust me on this!

I spent a week taking lighting design courses at Lutron and it changed my life. 

but you can do that with Control4...i'm not sure what makes scene's different...

[Jeff W]

Just now, msgreenf said:

but you can do that with Control4...i'm not sure what makes scene's different...

Correct, you can create scenes with Control4 too, I'm not saying it's exclusive to Lutron.  I'm just saying using Scene based lighting is a far superior way of controlling rooms/spaces.  

Once you do it, you won't go back regardless if you use Lutron or Control4.  

[msgreenf]

4 minutes ago, Jeff W said:

Correct, you can create scenes with Control4 too, I'm not saying it's exclusive to Lutron.  I'm just saying using Scene based lighting is a far superior way of controlling rooms/spaces.  

Once you do it, you won't go back regardless if you use Lutron or Control4.  

100% agree!  In most projects I tend to use APDs for this reason so that you can do single button programming and then hide additional loads that are required on APDs in closets or out of the main room

[dinom]

16 hours ago, Jeff W said:

I prefer the Lutron programming capabilities.  In my opinion, it's better, faster, easier and you can create better lighting scenes. 

The LED feedback offers multiple options that automatically program itself based on what you select.

Ra3 have less buttons per keypad, You'll want to look at scene based lighting designs rather than fixture based buttons.

There is no customer based programming/training for Ra3 software.  Ra2 and Ra3 use different software, they are completely different beasts.  If you go with Ra3 you'll want to find someone who is very familiar with the design software because it's a big jump from the Ra2 software. Ra3 requires your dealer to get certified before they can install Ra3.

With that said, clients can change much of the keypad programming through the Lutron connect app though (just not everything).

You cannot order color change kits for Ra3.  Once you buy your color, you're stuck with it unless you buy a new unit/new color.  

Not true. I took the training and have access to the RA3 software. Just like I did years ago with RA2. And I’m not a dealer, just DIY homeowner. 

[Neo1738]

One thing I like about C4 switches is ability to program LED colors on different things like music station, garage door open or closed, etc.

[Jeff W]

3 hours ago, dinom said:

Not true. I took the training and have access to the RA3 software. Just like I did years ago with RA2. And I’m not a dealer, just DIY homeowner. 

Interesting, didn't know they did that!  Thanks for the information!