Composer Pro

[CFUG]

My company and the company my wife works for are all busy, but I can guarantee that I would never let an e-mail or a phone call go more then 24 hours without some sort of respose. NEVER...

 

There is nothing relative about this what so ever, no mater how you try to defend it.  I can call companies far more busy then any integrator and get a phone call back the same day or within 24 hours.  

 

More then 3 days and your fired and I've moved on to a new contractor.  I don't expect you to do my work right away but I better get a response in a timely manner where you tell me when you can do my project or your going to have one less customer. 

LOL.  By any chance are you a builder/developer?

[ILoveC4]

If they went down this road pro should advise a pre load backup.

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It should do that anyways! It's about the only software I've ever seen without an "undo" button.

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[MHotchin]

If they went down this road pro should advise a pre load backup.

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It would be nice if on exit it offerred to backup, KEPT SEVERAL backups, and let you ADD A COMMENT to each backup.  If / when there's a problem, you could browse your backups and see what you did.  Of course, you can always skip addding a useful comment, but that's no worse than it is now!

[msgreenf]

you can keep as many backups as you want in Composer pro.....

[mstafford388]

Yup. Every time I work on a system I back it up and date the back up file. I have 20+ back ups for some customers.

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[texas3622]

If the business model is about protecting the relationship with the dealers then the local control with pro should still be fine - create an annual licensing fee that pays the dealers a cut. Allow the end users to buy hardware (and give the dealers a cut in the process) and if something needs to be fixed the dealers can/will charge a fee. The local control system allows the dealers to be protected. Control4 already created home edition - did that take away any business from the dealers - my assumption would be no. The percentage if people who will actually want to use pro and are DYI's is small but this would allow the perception of openness.

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[AHA]

Does any one else offer complete programming control to the end user, such as Crestron, Savant or AMX?

[texas3622]

And of course - allow access locally to pro once the system has been installed so that there is a defined dealer. Allow the end user to change their dealer if they desire and change that on the back end also.

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[texas3622]

No one else allows it but they are not publicly traded either. Doesn't control4 want to grow????

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[ILoveC4]

Does any one else offer complete programming control to the end user, such as Crestron, Savant or AMX?

Why does that matter? There always a first person/company to do something.

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[AHA]

Why does that matter? There always a first person/company to do something.

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I was asking as I don't know about the companies mentioned.

[mstafford388]

I've been waiting to chime in on this one.  I understand why all of the end users here would want access to pro.  I would.  However, I don't think the end users here are your average end users.  The typical customer, at least ours, does not have the know how to touch any of this stuff.  Unfortunately i don't think that would stop half of them from trying.  As a dealer i would be terrified if my customers had access to pro (and a little pissed at control4, but thats a different story).  I would inevitably end up with pissed off customers whose systems don't work.  Even if they are the ones that mess things up they will want us as a dealer to drop what we are doing to come fix their crap.  people don't like a non-working system for any length of time no matter what the casue.  I would be spending half my time running around fixing people systems and as much as everyone thinks that's not a big deal because we could charge for that, calls like that are not how my company makes money.  We would very much prefer to install a system and never have to touch it again.  That makes for a happy customer and at least 50% of our new business comes from word of mouth.  I'd like to keep that going.  

 

I know i'm in the minority here.  don't want to argue about it.  Just my two cents.  

[texas3622]

Take the deal they announced with one of the big home builders. They install a basic system - controller, few switches etc. When the homeowner (who just spent several hundred thousand finds out they need to call a dealer in to install their TV, what do you think they do? They sell their hardware - there was a guy selling his stuff on this forum. I understand their need to protect the dealers and to give people a great experience. But they are now public. No growth, no mercy in the market..

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[SMHarman]

Take the deal they announced with one of the big home builders. They install a basic system - controller, few switches etc. When the homeowner (who just spent several hundred thousand finds out they need to call a dealer in to install their TV, what do you think they do? They sell their hardware - there was a guy selling his stuff on this forum. I understand their need to protect the dealers and to give people a great experience. But they are now public. No growth, no mercy in the market..

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The deal needs to building a half day to hook the TV and other devices into the system.

The dealer can then spend some time upselling what else it can do.

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[AK1]

If the business model is about protecting the relationship with the dealers then the local control with pro should still be fine - create an annual licensing fee that pays the dealers a cut. Allow the end users to buy hardware (and give the dealers a cut in the process) and if something needs to be fixed the dealers can/will charge a fee. The local control system allows the dealers to be protected. Control4 already created home edition - did that take away any business from the dealers - my assumption would be no. The percentage if people who will actually want to use pro and are DYI's is small but this would allow the perception of openness.

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I don't think the model needs to go beyond a constrained Composer Pro for DIY end users. There's no win for Control4 to let these users buy hardware direct. Let them continue to buy from their dealer of choice, it further cements the relationship.  I think DIY end users would be more than happy with this type of relationship.

[AK1]

I've been waiting to chime in on this one.  I understand why all of the end users here would want access to pro.  I would.  However, I don't think the end users here are your average end users.  The typical customer, at least ours, does not have the know how to touch any of this stuff.  Unfortunately i don't think that would stop half of them from trying.  As a dealer i would be terrified if my customers had access to pro (and a little pissed at control4, but thats a different story).  I would inevitably end up with pissed off customers whose systems don't work.  Even if they are the ones that mess things up they will want us as a dealer to drop what we are doing to come fix their crap.  people don't like a non-working system for any length of time no matter what the casue.  I would be spending half my time running around fixing people systems and as much as everyone thinks that's not a big deal because we could charge for that, calls like that are not how my company makes money.  We would very much prefer to install a system and never have to touch it again.  That makes for a happy customer and at least 50% of our new business comes from word of mouth.  I'd like to keep that going.  

 

I know i'm in the minority here.  don't want to argue about it.  Just my two cents.  

 

I guess it comes down to the type of dealership you operate. Most of my customers would buy more gear from me and I could charge for more services and be generally more engaged  with my customers if they had more control and ownership over their systems. Admittedly my profile of customer is much more like the profile of the OP in the first post of this thread. In fact, I find the other type of customer who just wants it work without understanding anything about the system much harder to support and deal with.

[neil12011]

Wanted to also add that I finally got a response from my old dealer after 63 days that said merely, "we've been busy...how about April 7th?".  Now that my friends is Customer Service at it's best!

 

I'd like to think my response was wayyyyyyyy more timely  

[seth_j]

Yawn.. didn't we discuss this ad nauseam a few weeks, months, years ago?

 

 

Yes.. it would be nice. C4's customers are dealers. Read the S1. Dealers are very important. The policy doesn't make sense to anyone who rationally thinks about it.

 

 

See you again in a few weeks.

[Mark LaBelle]

Despite us both having having the flu this week, you were about 60 days ahead of them.  :-)  Nice work!  Thanks again for getting things done tonight.  LOVE the new Axxess Doorbell.

[AK1]

Yawn.. didn't we discuss this ad nauseam a few weeks, months, years ago?

Yes.. it would be nice. C4's customers are dealers. Read the S1. Dealers are very important. The policy doesn't make sense to anyone who rationally thinks about it.

See you again in a few weeks.

That's overly dismissive. The discussion in this thread proposes a way to enfranchise DIY users at no obvious detriment to the dealer network.

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[wappinghigh]

Yawn.. didn't we discuss this ad nauseam a few weeks, months, years ago?

 

 

Yes.. it would be nice. C4's customers are dealers. Read the S1. Dealers are very important. The policy doesn't make sense to anyone who rationally thinks about it.

 

 

See you again in a few weeks.

Ok..so how many more of those fantastic Push Notify drivers do you think you would sell with an instant world wide internet market..(and at what higher margin): if end users could visit a simple website, pay you via pay pal, download the driver, and then upload it into composer within less than a minute of the purchase..?

[wappinghigh]

^ You know, surely there can be a "win win" for everyone.... I think that is the issue that needs to be explored here.. 

[wappinghigh]

I've been waiting to chime in on this one.  I understand why all of the end users here would want access to pro.  I would.  However, I don't think the end users here are your average end users.  The typical customer, at least ours, does not have the know how to touch any of this stuff.  Unfortunately i don't think that would stop half of them from trying.  As a dealer i would be terrified if my customers had access to pro (and a little pissed at control4, but thats a different story).  I would inevitably end up with pissed off customers whose systems don't work.  Even if they are the ones that mess things up they will want us as a dealer to drop what we are doing to come fix their crap.  people don't like a non-working system for any length of time no matter what the casue.  I would be spending half my time running around fixing people systems and as much as everyone thinks that's not a big deal because we could charge for that, calls like that are not how my company makes money.  We would very much prefer to install a system and never have to touch it again.  That makes for a happy customer and at least 50% of our new business comes from word of mouth.  I'd like to keep that going.  

 

I know i'm in the minority here.  don't want to argue about it.  Just my two cents.  

No. On the contrary, what a constructive post! I think this about the best thing I have ever read on this issue from a Control4 dealer. Thankyou for being so frank and honest. Your right. There most definitely are a large spectrum of users.. and you are very correct to point out the real problem are those that say they are just fine with a total dealer only instal, yet then go on to dabble.. 

[wappinghigh]

^ so the real issue is how to deal with this sort of customer.. right? 

 

The one that could really screw things up.

 

That's why I've always thought a kind of cut down pro or beefed up HE is the way forward..

 

You know lock out huge stuff ups, like room and total project changes and the like: but allow certain app and driver downloads ( Seth's Push Notify is one example of this. Alan's Recluse XBMC driver is another)... So allow firmware upgrades, simple TV or Blu Ray player room swaps, name and item changes etc, but disallow large Controller, audio matrix or C4 gear instals....

 

I have no idea if this can be done though.. don't know enough about the basis of the program..

 

What's locked down deliberately vs what's locked down because there is no other way.. 

 

Frankly it's hard to get an honest answer on this issue around here.. 

 

Anyway. Great post and thanks for the perspective. Appreciate it. 

 

Cheers

[msgreenf]

wapp are you talking to yourself again? 

 

Think about it another way, can you call up GM and buy your car?  No.  Can you call up Jeep and go to the factory and order one?  That's the same idea here...control4 is designed to deal with a small number of trained people, not the masses.  

 

While I don't think it's impossible to change, it would be a major change first starting with double or triple the support people.  And I agree with the point that a lot of people would really f things up....The best part of Control4 is when everything is clicking and working well..when it doesn't work, we all know how frustrating this is.

 

I feel like this is dismissing the value of trained people in doing a job.  What if at your job someone came in tomorrow and said they were going to let anyone do your job?  Not a good feeling...

 

But I do agree with the Prosumer DIYer this isn't good.  But as others have pointed out, the best thing you can do is have a kick ass dealer who helps you when you need it and lets you rock out with Composer HE when you can.

 

Seems like if you can't find a dealer that wants to play ball, you need to find a better dealer not call the whole model flawed.

 

ps I know that someone is going to say the car example is bad because of Tesla, but it still isn't people calling the factory, it's company owned dealers.