Composer Pro

[zaphod]

Think about it another way, can you call up GM and buy your car?  No.  

Interesting analogy - can you call up Tesla and buy a car?  Yes, unless you are in New Jersey and the local car dealers have the politicans by the cojones and get them to enforce a law supporting an antiquated and no longer relevant business model.

 

Sound somewhat familiar ...

[Homex]

"There will always be the majority of users who need / want dealer guidance and hand-holding..."

 

THIS is Control4's market focus.  DIY's...not so much...

[texas3622]

It is all about perception. Control4 can keep touting all it wants but if I can't even install a driver by myself my experience is crap. I have a 50k plus system and won't be recommending to anyone.

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[texas3622]

Insert "integration" after "touting." Sorry for the typo...

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[mstafford388]

Yes I agree, that the end user we make mistakes, which will then give the dealers more business.

 

So its a win win for the dealer.

 

My dealer got excited about some of the things that have happened to my system (Using dealers on here to add drivers etc), however now he calls me asking about solutions to problems (Well twice), 

 

End users and dealers need each other and C4 need both to increase there market share 

 

It's not completely a win win for the dealer.  Running around doing service call to fix customer errors isn't a profitable venture for my company.  Sure it's income, and would probably pay the bills.  but our time is much better spent focusing on bigger projects.

[prabeau]

Service is service.

 

So I shouldn't call my dealer unless I have thousands to spend.......unbelievable !

[cdepaola]

This is an issue for many dealers, they focus on installs and devote almost zero resources to service calls. This is understandable for a small operator with on a few techs as an install makes the dealer more money. I see this as a bad thing for current customers though as they tend suffer and get placed at the back of the list. A company with a dedicated service side and install side is a much better business model for everyone and again makes this topic a win win for everyone.

 

Nice thing with a dedicated service side is they can do lots of stuff besides Control4 service calls. Lots of opportunities for residential IT work these days.

 

Also a "small" DIY community that gets limited support can be good for a few reasons. They tend to push the limits of what's possible and hence stress the system in ways the average dealer wouldn't. Breaking things is sometimes good, how many bugs get through beta simply because the beta team tends to not really push the limits.

 

DIY folks also tend to be well educated in their field of interest. As mentioned here users can often offer new solutions to their dealer. I've personally shared numerous products and programming ideas with my dealer. Dealers, not all, tend to work within a comfort zone and most residential installs are straight forward. However having a bigger comfort zone or tool bag of tricks is always good for the customer. Just because something is requested only occasionally doesn't make it any less important.

 

This is why I like this forum and highly respect the dealers and Control4 employees that participate. It's a great place to help users but also to learn. If everyone would just get over the Control4/dealers vs users fight it would/could be even better.

 

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[mstafford388]

Service is service.

 

So I shouldn't call my dealer unless I have thousands to spend.......unbelievable !

 

Completely not my point.  Service is an important part of our company being successful.  My point was more we wouldn't want to create additional service calls by our end users having composer pro.  I was simply pointing out that it is not a win/win for dealers.  I posted earlier in this thread.  go read it for more of my opinion on the subject.

[mstafford388]

This is an issue for many dealers, they focus on installs and devote almost zero resources to service calls. This is understandable for a small operator with on a few techs as an install makes the dealer more money. I see this as a bad thing for current customers though as they tend suffer and get placed at the back of the list. A company with a dedicated service side and install side is a much better business model for everyone and again makes this topic a win win for everyone. Nice thing with a dedicated service side is they can do lots of stuff besides Control4 service calls. Lots of opportunities for residential IT work these days. Also a "small" DIY community that gets limited support can be good for a few reasons. They tend to push the limits of what's possible and hence stress the system in ways the average dealer wouldn't. Breaking things is sometimes good, how many bugs get through beta simply because the beta team tends to not really push the limits. DIY folks also tend to be well educated in their field of interest. As mentioned here users can often offer new solutions to their dealer. I've personally shared numerous products and programming ideas with my dealer. Dealers, not all, tend to work within a comfort zone and most residential installs are straight forward. However having a bigger comfort zone or tool bag of tricks is always good for the customer. Just because something is requested only occasionally doesn't make it any less important. This is why I like this forum and highly respect the dealers and Control4 employes that participate. It's a great place to help users but also to learn. If everyone would just get over the Control4/dealers vs users fight it would/could be even better. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

This is more inline with my initial post on this subject.  The DIY crowd that posts here is not your typical customer.  There are plenty of people here that could rock composer pro without any issues at all.  I would say that's probably less than 5% of C4 users though, and I don't see Control4 changing their stance on this anytime soon.  I browse these forums mainly for new ideas and some feedback on whats working/not working well for people.  I've already implemented several of the things I've seen here in our installs.  There is an insane amount of value in what the end user has to say about system functionality, consumer wants/needs, and just general creativity.    So just know that when I post the dealer point of view on something I'm not at all trying to fight or discredit the end-user.  

[Godzilla]

all service calls are a chance to upsell or promote new products.....or even train

warranty , service calls , user error,.........are all part of the process and are expected......new takeovers are also interesting

 

we have alot of customers and i have to say only 1 of them has HE, even though i promote it and even tell them of this forum, most dont seem interested

[SMHarman]

Godzilla, I think most of those that have the lettuce for a full on control4 dealer install have enough complexity in their life and are buying into the Apple style 'it just works' mentality and don't want to understand the code just that it does what they paid for.

Coming full circle there was a thread here a while back on universal remotes being the most returned as they are tough to get to work.

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[cdepaola]

Godzilla, I think most of those that have the lettuce for a full on control4 dealer install have enough complexity in their life and are buying into the Apple style 'it just works' mentality and don't want to understand the code just that it does what they paid for.

Coming full circle there was a thread here a while back on universal remotes being the most returned as they are tough to get to work.

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They are tough to get to work and hence the most returned because the quality is piss poor and because manufactures have this idea that proprietary IR codes are the way to go.  I wish someone would start a standards group on AV equipment control protocol. We have standards groups for everything else, why not this I don't know.

 

Also I agree that most people just "want it to work" and the vast majority of Control4 resources should be aimed at this crowd.  I also think they are putting some resources into other segments with much of what they are now doing making adding equipment easier.  I'm sure its on their roadmap to be able to plug & play as many components as is reasonable, at least this is what it looks like their goal is.  

[AK1]

Completely not my point.  Service is an important part of our company being successful.  My point was more we wouldn't want to create additional service calls by our end users having composer pro.  I was simply pointing out that it is not a win/win for dealers.  I posted earlier in this thread.  go read it for more of my opinion on the subject.

The shortest path to revenue is your existing customers. Actually I submit you would want to to create more service calls by helping out the (very small number of high end users) those Composer Pro users who need assistance. It further cements the relationship with the customer and in all likelihood would lead to increased equipment purchases, thereby further benefiting your company.

[Homex]

prabeau;

 

Your dealer is in business to make money.  Plain and simple.  Don't kid yourself otherwise - that is the nature of your relationship with him.  He billed you $100 which in the scheme of a system or labor to install one or for that matter a service call is insubstantial.  Obviously he felt justified somewhat about billing you for something - I suspect there is more to the story than you are letting on.

[matt4gps]

Maybe a compromise would be to enable Composer Home to install components that are C4 certified.  That takes the driver and compatibility issue out of the equation.  There isn't any reason why I shouldn't be able to buy a C4 light switch and install it myself.  Or replace a Sony Blu-ray player with a different brand that's C4 certified.  I understand that the initial project build should be by someone how knows the tricks, but open it up just a little.  

[RyanE]

There isn't any reason why I shouldn't be able to buy a C4 light switch and install it myself.  Or replace a Sony Blu-ray player with a different brand that's C4 certified.

 

Other than company policy, which this thread can't particularly address, as only a few people from Control4 (and none from management) participate here.

 

RyanE

[msgreenf]

as Ryan says, this thread is kinda pointless (Beyond venting).  Write the CEO, call the corp office, make your voice heard to them because they don't come here.

[zaphod]

There is an insane amount of value in what the end user has to say about system functionality, consumer wants/needs, and just general creativity.     

I agree with this but when you look at Ryan's post that very few people at C4 pay attention to these forums then you have to wonder if they are good business people.  Lots of businesses spend a lot of money to get customer feedback surveys and the execs at C4 seem to be just ignoring their most enthusiastic customer base who may be small but who are influential. 

 

I bet most of the users on this forum have been asked their advice by people considering putting in a HA system.  Personally I am very muted about my praise.  If I could buy Composer Pro and do stuff like changing a DVD player without having to call a dealer I would be much more of a disciple for C4.

[Homex]

C4 runs their own set of forums - dealers only - and they pay attention to the feedback that comes through their dealers.  Press your dealer to make the issue in that forum.

[prabeau]

prabeau;

 

Your dealer is in business to make money.  Plain and simple.  Don't kid yourself otherwise - that is the nature of your relationship with him.  He billed you $100 which in the scheme of a system or labor to install one or for that matter a service call is insubstantial.  Obviously he felt justified somewhat about billing you for something - I suspect there is more to the story than you are letting on.

No there isn't

I dont expect a business to do anything for free.

I have a great relationship with my dealer.

 

Was simply trying to point out the limited access to my own system.

I also must point out that I was encouraged to pursue my interest in a new driver and share my findings.

My bad to think this could be anything but a business relationship.

 

Let me install a driver and if I need his help after my system catches fire and burns down the neighbourhood I will be glad

to pay for his time, new equipment and all the programming.

 

As you say business is business but with the logic going around the dealer would not be keen on fixing,rebuilding my system

because it would be considered a service call.

 

Just saying !

[cdepaola]

I agree with this but when you look at Ryan's post that very few people at C4 pay attention to these forums then you have to wonder if they are good business people.  Lots of businesses spend a lot of money to get customer feedback surveys and the execs at C4 seem to be just ignoring their most enthusiastic customer base who may be small but who are influential. 

 

I bet most of the users on this forum have been asked their advice by people considering putting in a HA system.  Personally I am very muted about my praise.  If I could buy Composer Pro and do stuff like changing a DVD player without having to call a dealer I would be much more of a disciple for C4.

 

I'd say they have proven to be smart, despite the lingering sentiment here, as they have continued to grow the company year after year.  I'm also guessing that they don't lose sleep that a small segment of a small segment of its users don't recommend their product to their friends. While I think they should have better end user communication channels available they really consider their customer to be their dealers. 

 

Its their business, their business model, and they are free to do what they like. 

[DTxAg]

I've actually told several people in my new neighborhood that Control4 works great but you are totally dependent on a dealer to do things like add or change equipment, add rooms, etc. I'm not sure if any of them went with Control4.

 

The inability to do things like simply add a thermostat or light switch to an existing room boggles me.

[RyanE]

Homex is correct.  Control4 does listen to feedback from dealers, certainly more than feedback from end user homeowners, although Control4 has made steps in the direction of getting more direct feedback, i.e. Control4 now has a 'customer advocate' group, which handles concerns that are not being properly handled by a homeowner's dealer, and Control4 has in the past sent out surveys to homeowners.

 

Ultimately, dealers are Control4's life blood.  Many dealers were against Control4 even releasing ComposerHE back in the day, and although I personally don't think that some version of ComposerPro functionality for 'advanced' users such as those in this forum would be a bad thing, these kinds of changes tend to run on a glacial timeframe.

 

Thanks.

 

RyanE

 

P.S.  I've been informed this morning by Control4 management that I misspoke somewhat, and that some higher level management *do* monitor these forums, including this post...  FYI.

[texas3622]

I am no dealer but I can assure you my questions on the forum would not be different than those by many of the "dealers"

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[msgreenf]

RyanE, I like that they see this post even if they aren't commenting publicly, they are thinking...