Cyknight Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 P.S. I've been informed this morning by Control4 management that I misspoke somewhat, and that some higher level management *do* monitor these forums, including this post... FYI. Sneaky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Leeds UK Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Good to see they are checking on us !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Sneaky Sneaky, indeed. I was pleasantly surprised to hear of this, though. Always nice to know the "people in charge" want to know what's going on. RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Sneaky, indeed. I was pleasantly surprised to hear of this, though. Always nice to know the "people in charge" want to know what's going on. RyanEWell I know I've pointed a few of 'them' here over time if there were specifically ... active ... discussions. Couldn't tell for the life of me if they followed my pointer or not (I know I never got any reply, though non were expected) but it isn't a bad thing that they keep an ear open for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smccray Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Also a "small" DIY community that gets limited support can be good for a few reasons. They tend to push the limits of what's possible and hence stress the system in ways the average dealer wouldn't. Breaking things is sometimes good, how many bugs get through beta simply because the beta team tends to not really push the limits. DIY folks also tend to be well educated in their field of interest. As mentioned here users can often offer new solutions to their dealer. I've personally shared numerous products and programming ideas with my dealer. Dealers, not all, tend to work within a comfort zone and most residential installs are straight forward. However having a bigger comfort zone or tool bag of tricks is always good for the customer. Just because something is requested only occasionally doesn't make it any less important. This. If I were running C4, I would, on a trial basis, start a 180 day trial with an advanced end-user group. Pay a nominal fee ($100 or so- it's just not free) to C4 and you get access to composer pro. That group has pro access, but cannot contact C4 support, nor can that group purchase products without going through their dealer. No dealer forum access (at least initially), and none of the other rights/privileges that normally come with being a dealer. You simply get access to composer pro. Sure- my dealer would love the fee on a service call, but let's face it- he probably doesn't make much money on service calls. It takes too much time. On one hand, C4 has to protect its life blood and its brand name. Dealers need to be profitable. If everyone has access to pro and you get a bad install it reflects poorly on C4. At the same time, granting access on a limited basis wouldn't significantly impact dealer profits and would/could create the benefits fire/medic mentions above. Top of my list: I want to figure out how to integrate a player piano into C4. Paying a dealer to program that integration is tough to swallow and it's part of the reason the piano isn't integrated. When I had a dealer look in the dealer forums a few years ago, there weren't any references on how to integrate a Steinway player piano into Control4. Either it hasn't been done (unlikely) or the resources don't exist to tell the broader community how to integrate the device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texas3622 Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Sign me up. I would argue that they should let people buy the hardware and give a cut to the dealer of record. This would act as 1) an incentive to the dealers 2) could act as a way to let dealers know that the customer has bought some hardware 3) let the dealers then help (for a fee) if necessary. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 I want access to Composer Pro but I have no interest in wiring up my own dimmers and switches. I would perhaps want to be able to install my own outlet switches. I like playing around with technology but I am not someone who is going to be rewiring my own house. But I know a lot more than my dealer about PCs, networking, leading edge technlogogies, etc as my dealer is primarily an old-school electrician. But what I want is the ability to play around with different drivers like PushNotify, Generic TCP drivers, integrating my existing technology into C4, etc. I also want to be able to change my own A/V components like TVs, BluRay players, Apple TV, AVR, etc. And if I screw something up then it is my fault and I have to pay to fix it. I really don't think that is too much to ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smccray Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 And if I screw something up then it is my fault and I have to pay to fix it. This is what I've heard in the past as the biggest reason not to give end users access to pro- the End User will mess up their system and then expect the dealer to fix it for free. I share your perspective- if I mess up my system I can't ask a dealer to fix my mistake for free. Sign me up. I would argue that they should let people buy the hardware and give a cut to the dealer of record. This would act as 1) an incentive to the dealers 2) could act as a way to let dealers know that the customer has bought some hardware 3) let the dealers then help (for a fee) if necessary.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk The dealers aren't going to like giving any end users access to pro. I think we can agree that giving a handful of people access to composer pro isn't going to have a big impact on the dealers, but if I put myself in the dealers' shoes I wouldn't like it either. We don't want anyone to think that the special access granted by Control4 would lead to us doing some control4 programming on the side. However, I believe the value that the end users that will push the envelope is worthwhile. Limiting the ability to order hardware through dealers demonstrates Control4's commitment to the dealer network. As much as we want access to Composer Pro, we certainly don't want to hurt Control 4's business model. After the trial is over perhaps revisit the equipment ordering policy. I would also be interested in access to read the dealer forums, but let's start small. We can speculate on the impact, but the only way to really know what the impact will be is to run a test. After we show how the end user can contribute to the Control4 stakeholders community, it will be easier to justify our perspective that Control4 should create a special "prosumer" access category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texas3622 Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 So you are saying that someone who spends 50-100k on a system is not a stakeholder???? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texas3622 Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 I would frankly argue that the dealers are holding C4 back. I got 3 quotes when I had my system installed. The one I accepted was almost 40% less than the "platinum level dealer." That dealer made the comment that they automatically charge more for components because they can. My dealer did a great job and the system works great. I was was limited only to the platinum dealer I would have never gotten the system. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smccray Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 So you are saying that someone who spends 50-100k on a system is not a stakeholder????Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAbsolutely not- we've made large investments in systems and we are most certainly stakeholders. I would also argue that conventional wisdom is that the end user does not have anything to offer. We have the ability to do programming within a project with composer HE, but we don't have access to push the boundaries with the current setup. I won't go so far as saying that dealers are holding back the company, but I too had a bad experience with a platinum dealer in Dallas. I used them for phase 1 of a project and promptly ended the relationship. I'm using a new dealer to finish the install and I'm much happier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texas3622 Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 I would bet that the "platinum dealers" tried to restrict access at some point and argued that they should be the only installers because they would be better at it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homex Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 This. If I were running C4, I would, on a trial basis, start a 180 day trial with an advanced end-user group. Pay a nominal fee ($100 or so- it's just not free) to C4 and you get access to composer pro. That group has pro access, but cannot contact C4 support, nor can that group purchase products without going through their dealer. No dealer forum access (at least initially), and none of the other rights/privileges that normally come with being a dealer. You simply get access to composer pro. Sure- my dealer would love the fee on a service call, but let's face it- he probably doesn't make much money on service calls. It takes too much time. On one hand, C4 has to protect its life blood and its brand name. Dealers need to be profitable. If everyone has access to pro and you get a bad install it reflects poorly on C4. At the same time, granting access on a limited basis wouldn't significantly impact dealer profits and would/could create the benefits fire/medic mentions above. Top of my list: I want to figure out how to integrate a player piano into C4. Paying a dealer to program that integration is tough to swallow and it's part of the reason the piano isn't integrated. When I had a dealer look in the dealer forums a few years ago, there weren't any references on how to integrate a Steinway player piano into Control4. Either it hasn't been done (unlikely) or the resources don't exist to tell the broader community how to integrate the device. How about a scenario where the DIY user ponies up the money for the 4 day tech I course and gets a version of composer pro that is wide open but restricted to only their own system. That's going to be a long ways from $100 though...probably closer to 5k if I were to hazard a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texas3622 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 That's a great idea. Keep restricting access and let's see how much C4 can grow. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK1 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 That's a great idea. Keep restricting access and let's see how much C4 can grow.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Actually no, that was the original point made at the start of this thread that the DIY version of Composer Pro should be limited to your own controller. C4 is clearly committed to the dealer approach for the foreseeable future and opening up Composer Pro to all users willing to pay a fee would break the dealer model. Locking the Composer Pro to your own controller(s) is IMHO a perfectly reasonable limit that gives the DIY all they need and puts them way ahead of where they are today. To give them unfettered Composer Pro, would effectively make them equivalent to dealers in technical toolset, but without any safeguards or training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texas3622 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 These kinds of comments only reinforce the perception this is only to protect dealer profits. I am sorry to break the news to everyone her but C4 is now a public company. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I would bet that the "platinum dealers" tried to restrict access at some point and argued that they should be the only installers because they would be better at it.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkoh for sure!!!!we do that all the time...its the only way to become Pinnacle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texas3622 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 No one is asking for that here. All us DIYs want is control over their own systems Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK1 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 These kinds of comments only reinforce the perception this is only to protect dealer profits. I am sorry to break the news to everyone her but C4 is now a public company.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk The point is that C4's business is welded to a dealer network and that is not going to change any time soon. The raison d'etre behind C4's business model is profit for its shareholders and it achieves that via its dealer network. Those dealers also have to make profit or they would not choose to remain C4 dealers. I assume also whatever business you're in (or your company) that it operates in a profitable manner. The whole purpose of this thread was to propose a way to empower the DIY users with access to Composer Pro. Garry's original idea is likely the best suggestion in a long time that gives the DIY users ownership of their systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texas3622 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I agree. But C4 should also have a commitment to providing a great experience for their end users. 90% of users are probably content with the current system. As I mentioned in one of my posts, the fact that I can't even install a simple driver myself and can only wonder what it must be like for the people on this forum who can is pretty upsetting. To tell me to call a dealer anytime I want to make a simple addition to the system is not what I want to hear - especially when the dealer is going to charge me and is probably going to take a ge weeks to come over at the same time. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK1 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I agree. But C4 should also have a commitment to providing a great experience for their end users. 90% of users are probably content with the current system. As I mentioned in one of my posts, the fact that I can't even install a simple driver myself and can only wonder what it must be like for the people on this forum who can is pretty upsetting. To tell me to call a dealer anytime I want to make a simple addition to the system is not what I want to hear - especially when the dealer is going to charge me and is probably going to take a ge weeks to come over at the same time.Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI totally agree. That's exactly the problems DIY users like you are facing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texas3622 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 And that is why I have stopped recommending it to my friends who come over and see the system. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homex Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 The point is that C4's business is welded to a dealer network and that is not going to change any time soon. The raison d'etre behind C4's business model is profit for its shareholders and it achieves that via its dealer network. Those dealers also have to make profit or they would not choose to remain C4 dealers. I assume also whatever business you're in you (or your company) that it operates in a profitable manner. Bingo - well put. Plain and simple, C4 is not nor has ever been marketed as a DIY platform. Nobody has a gun to their head to force them to buy it either. In this great society of ours, the company has exercised its freedom and chosen a business model that obviously works for them. The vast majority of users are content with their current system and they have lived up to their commitment to them through providing increasingly better product and support. If a DIY product is what you really want then there are other platforms that you can and should experiment with that are fully open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homex Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I would frankly argue that the dealers are holding C4 back. I got 3 quotes when I had my system installed. The one I accepted was almost 40% less than the "platinum level dealer." That dealer made the comment that they automatically charge more for components because they can. My dealer did a great job and the system works great. I was was limited only to the platinum dealer I would have never gotten the system.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Your dealer did a great job and the system works great and yet you would not recommend the product because the company won't change their business model to further your personal interests on a system that you obviously did your homework on extensively before purchasing (knowing it was not a DIY system) because you had it quoted 3 times? WOW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texas3622 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Why are you guys so scared of end users being able to have more control over their systems?? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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