Composer Pro

[texas3622]

You don't really care about whether we mess up the systems. It's all about the money.

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[RyanE]

I think there are a lot of opinions flying around in here that are being posted as fact.

 

The only fact of the matter is that Control4 has not *at this point* decided to allow homeowners access to anything more than ComposerHE (unless they happen to work for a dealer, are a manufacturer or developer, etc.).

 

I appreciate those in this forum who are asking for that access, but placing blame for not having it on dealer pressure or profits, etc. is not appreciated, at least by me, and I think advocating for getting better access works better without the motive accusations.

 

As mentioned above, I think your asking for that access is fine, and is likely being heard, but let's try and keep it positive.

 

Thanks!

 

RyanE

[Tokead]

If you don't ask, you never get. If you ask for the sky, you may get HE++ with the ability to add simple hardware (SDDP) and drivers.

I understand the dealer model and support it; however, I don't care for the rating as it's based on sales and not on competence (my experience). I do like the idea of Pro for a project.

Here's my analogy:

Auto dealers, I can choose to take my car go them for all work or just an oil change; or I can try and do it myself. The oil change is no problem, but I choose to go to the dealer. Brakes: I'm not even going to try.

Control 4: I'd like to add a light switch or replace a piece of like equipment where the bindings stay the same. (The oil change). Troubleshooting or complex changes I'm going to call my dealer every time. I'm not tech savvy like a lot of the forum members; I just like options.

This model may open the market to some of those who stay away from C4 as they want to play and get turned off.

Good discussion as long as it stays civil

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[smccray]

I think there are a lot of opinions flying around in here that are being posted as fact.

 

The only fact of the matter is that Control4 has not *at this point* decided to allow homeowners access to anything more than ComposerHE (unless they happen to work for a dealer, are a manufacturer or developer, etc.).

 

I appreciate those in this forum who are asking for that access, but placing blame for not having it on dealer pressure or profits, etc. is not appreciated, at least by me, and I think advocating for getting better access works better without the motive accusations.

 

As mentioned above, I think your asking for that access is fine, and is likely being heard, but let's try and keep it positive.

 

Thanks!

 

RyanE

I'll take the responsibility for the move towards talking about dealer profits, and it went in a direction I didn't mean it to go. I believe control 4 should remain a dealer installed product. I believe there's a small group of enthusiasts who can add to the value to the control4 community.

We can discuss the relative merits of DIY or dealer installed automation systems, but that's a different conversation. Control 4 has chosen a dealer installed model and that's where it begins and ends. I'm a finance guy so I generally think in terms of business case. Perhaps I'm assuming a down side risk that isn't there. Control 4 knows their business better than I do, so I'll leave it to the management team to assess the merits.

[zaphod]

Your dealer did a great job and the system works great and yet you would not recommend the product because the company won't change their business model to further your personal interests on a system that you obviously did your homework on extensively before purchasing (knowing it was not a DIY system) because you had it quoted 3 times?  WOW! 

To someone considering purchasing an HA system it isn't really clear what you need a dealer for and what you can do on your own.  My dealer said that I can program the system myself.  That is kind of true with Composer HE but there are limitations  I was shocked when I realized that I couldn't do something as simple as changing my DVD player without requiring a dealer.  

 

Adding a new iPhone or iPad used to also take a dealer, but that has now been changed to allow users to do that themselves.  Why not also allow us to add A/V components as well?

[Homex]

To someone considering purchasing an HA system it isn't really clear what you need a dealer for and what you can do on your own.  My dealer said that I can program the system myself.  That is kind of true with Composer HE but there are limitations  I was shocked when I realized that I couldn't do something as simple as changing my DVD player without requiring a dealer.  

 

Adding a new iPhone or iPad used to also take a dealer, but that has now been changed to allow users to do that themselves.  Why not also allow us to add A/V components as well?

 

[Cyknight]

Adding a new iPhone or iPad used to also take a dealer, but that has now been changed to allow users to do that themselves.  Why not also allow us to add A/V components as well?

 

And so glad they did.

 

But adding a new source, or swapping out a dvd player, is something else entirely than granting access to ComposerPro. And to do those things, right now, would mean that's what they'd HAVE to do.

The problem with doing that is that it also opens access to any number of more advanced options such as room bindings and audio paths that can potentially screw you royally if you don't know what you're doing. That a(ny) number of people here are able to handle that is besides the point, because if they granted it to some, they will have to grant it to all, which would then open up the flood gates of support calls.

 

So yes, perhaps a more advanced version of HE is the way to go, but it would mean writing a new program, possibly re-writing Pro, maybe changing how sources are added completely (indeed I can see how this might be implemented) ...which would potentially mean re-training dealers world-wide... cause update issues from system version that do support this vs versions that don't ...and it keeps escalating from there

 

I for one am not against giving end-users more flexibility in this regard at all, I certainly do NOT 'fear' for my future if it happens, but I think that perhaps some think of this in too simple terms.

There IS more to it than just writing up a disclaimer, because disclaimers like that are not even allowed in some jurisdictions, plus doing so may become a PR nightmare in and by itself - "former dealer only based company sells professional software to end user, refuses support". Sad, but it's how the world works.

If they DO write a separate program, probably the best bet, there's support required there as well on top of the potential deep-level changes required - while perhaps attainable, this won't be done overnight.

 

There's no harm in asking for it to be sure, but keep things in perspective. It may not be so easy to come to this change/addition, if it comes at all, as it seems on the surface.

Beyond that, keep asking for what you want, repeat the request as often as you want to make it clear you REALLY want it, but trying to 'bully' Control4, let alone the dealers (who in the end determine very little in the grand scheme of things), into an overnight change isn't likely to get you anywhere.

 

And if you ask for the sky, you may find yourself getting nothing but air. There's a myriad of other sayings, pseudo-sayings and song quotes one can come up with to add to that one

[neil12011]

I would bet that the "platinum dealers" tried to restrict access at some point and argued that they should be the only installers because they would be better at it.

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oh for sure!!!!

we do that all the time...its the only way to become Pinnacle

 

 

Laffs

[msgreenf]

SDDP devices you can add to a room via a touch screen.  No composer anything needed....

[RAV]

So what's in it for Control4?

 

Do you really think it would add significantly to their bottom line?

There's only like 12 people posting in this specific public thread, and half of those are dealers.

And the cost for Pro License was comitteed to be $300 plus a hundred a year = $2000 + 600/yr.

 

Now if you could add a couple thousand people who aren't buying because of closed software, then maybe it would be worth it.

But real world is probably a couple hundred, that's like adding one more good dealer, which is a lot less complicated.

[Mark LaBelle]

It's about market opportunity, not the few people who troll the boards. There are thousands that go in a different direction or not at all because of the fact that they are beholden to someone else.

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[texas3622]

What is in it for C4 is that people like me won't feel they are getting fleeced for every little thing they want to add. The only way people will expand their systems after the initial investment is if they fell they have ownership.

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[mstafford388]

What is in it for C4 is that people like me won't feel they are getting fleeced for every little thing they want to add. The only way people will expand their systems after the initial investment is if they fell they have ownership.

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That's a pretty bold statement.  It may be true for you and for several people here, but we add on to customers systems all the time.  None of them have "ownership".  If a dealer does a good job, there are plenty of end users out there who will use the dealer again to add on to their systems.  I'm doing that very thing right now.  Adding video distribution and a few zones of audio to a control4 sytstem we installed a year ago.  

[CFUG]

This is nothing more than a 3-way argument.  Sorry for the end-users that haven't CPro, sorry for those that do who probably spend too much time "tinkering/fixing" as oppose to "using" and dealers who, rightfully so, do need to ensure Control4 integrity on down the chain.

 

Poster #136, where are those "thousands" going do you think?

[texas3622]

This series of posts has obviously gotten to the point of circular arguments. I am just amazed that some of the people here think that I should not "own" my system despite having paid a dealer to buy it. Am I leasing the system then?

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[texas3622]

This is the issue with every industry. We love free markets till they affect us.

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[mstafford388]

This series of posts has obviously gotten to the point of circular arguments. I am just amazed that some of the people here think that I should not "own" my system despite having paid a dealer to buy it. Am I leasing the system then?

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For the record i wasn't saying you shouldn't "own" your system.  I was just pointing out there are tons of people out there who don't feel like they need to.  but you're right, we are running around in circles here.

[smccray]

So what's in it for Control4?

 

Do you really think it would add significantly to their bottom line?

There's only like 12 people posting in this specific public thread, and half of those are dealers.

And the cost for Pro License was comitteed to be $300 plus a hundred a year = $2000 + 600/yr.

 

Now if you could add a couple thousand people who aren't buying because of closed software, then maybe it would be worth it.

But real world is probably a couple hundred, that's like adding one more good dealer, which is a lot less complicated.

What's I'm it for C4? Free labor.

I agree with you 100% that there isn't an opportunity to collect additional fees by granting enthusiasts access to pro. I wouldn't make access free to a select group of end users because then everyone would want it- there's no cost. Dealers have a business to run and can't afford to spend time on projects for 'fun.' It's not fun- it's their job. At the same time, some end users, myself included, are reluctant to write a blank check to dealers to integrate some devices. We're interested in integration and we're willing to spend our own time for our own enjoyment pushing the envelope if our systems. If we can develop that community where we push capabilities and it doesn't require a significant investment from C4 then it makes sense to at least test the concept.

I wouldn't advocate a new software for advanced users. That takes programming time by C4 which I'm sure is a significant investment. I wouldn't offer tech certification classes because that changes the class. Tech classes are for professionals and if you change that adding end users then it changes the environment in the class. As a trial, the cost and disruption to The status quo should be as limited as possible. Perhaps there would be an opportunity to change the end user program later, but I wouldn't advocate a Big Bang change that grants access to pro.

We can push for the moon and ruffle feathers, but if I were a C4 executive I wouldn't listen. However, if we advocate a limited trial just to see what happens, perhaps the executive team would consider it. Even if the trial includes some parameters- only large systems (as defined by X, Y, and Z) and the dealer has to sign off on the specific end user, it's reasonable. No one here wants to see Control 4 harmed, and it's reasonable that the Control4 executive team approach this suggestion cautiously.

[SMHarman]

What is in it for C4 is that people like me won't feel they are getting fleeced for every little thing they want to add. The only way people will expand their systems after the initial investment is if they fell they have ownership.

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You own your home and depending on building code cannot go adding plumbing, gas outlets, even in NYC changing a light switch without a licenced electrician and a permit (like that is truly honored), anyway, my point is that in the land of the free, I am fleeced by regulation for simply wanting to change a light switch in more ways than one.

 

If I was truly wanting to be fully compliant with the law...

1. Buy a dimmer from a C4 dealer.
2. Hire a licenced electician
3. Have the licenced electrician pull a permit with the NY DOB to change the dimmer
4. Have the licenced electrician do the work and change the dimmer
5. Have the licenced electrician self certify that they did the work to code and close the open permit
6. Have the C4 dealer visit (or more realistically log in remotely) and add the dimmer to the project
7. Have the C4 dealer modify the system code to reflect this added functionality (or do it myself in Composer Home).

So the government licence requirements are far more of a headache than the dealer ones.  Likely if I bought that dimmer retail off my dealer he would offer to log in remotely and add it to the system for the price of the switch.

 

In summary, I 'own' the plumbing, 110V/220V wiring in my home and the gas lines in my home but am not allowed to expand those either.

[texas3622]

So with your analogy - a 100 dollar switch costs 400 and no one buys it.

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[texas3622]

We should also tell Home Depot and Lowe's to shut down.

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[texas3622]

And I wanted to make sure we are talking about programming and installing TV's and DVD's - not digging a trench in my back yard.

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[zaphod]

And I wanted to make sure we are talking about programming and installing TV's and DVD's - not digging a trench in my back yard.

Exactly - a lot of what we are talking about is not much different than being able to program a remote control that you purchased, or being able to install software on your iPhone without having to pay someone at the Apple store to do it for you.

[zaphod]

[SMHarman]

So with your analogy - a 100 dollar switch costs 400 and no one buys it.

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We should also tell Home Depot and Lowe's to shut down.

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Well contractors buy from Home Depot and Lowes and there are many laws that are unenforced in this country.

 

http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/new-york

 

And I wanted to make sure we are talking about programming and installing TV's and DVD's - not digging a trench in my back yard.

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Exactly - a lot of what we are talking about is not much different than being able to program a remote control that you purchased, or being able to install software on your iPhone without having to pay someone at the Apple store to do it for you.

 

Well I was considering all the functionality of C4 Pro. This comes back to the point of what parts of Pro would you unlock in this Home ++ or would it be Pro