C4 System Design - Feedback on my design

[krris]

hey folks, my wife and I will be building a house and I have put together a first pass at a design that I'd like to have implemented from Day1. 

eventually we would add more to it as in more C4 in wall tablets, more speaker zones, more A/V areas, more Lutron in-line dimmers etc, but initially this is what I thought we could start off with and would be in place for at least 6 months before we add to it. 

I've decided to put some equipment downstairs (network switches, Dahua NVR, MDF) because its close to the ISP ONT and some equipment upstairs (C4 controller, Triad Matrix/Amp) because its easier to run new speaker cables for more audio zones upstairs and tie it back to the matrix/amp. putting equipment in WIL is probably not possible due to WAF so I'll probably have a small rack in my office (study)  downstairs and one in the activity room upstairs. 

I do have  a lot of wiring limitations in the sense that my builder isn't allowing me to use my own electrician on site and they charge through the nose for running any wiring that i specifically ask them for. because of this, I'm only having them run the CAT6 data wiring and the speaker wiring for the speaker zones. also, being a double storey, i won't really be able to run any new wiring downstairs , upstairs is pretty easy though. i haven't shown it in my pics below but there is an extensive amount of data points that the builder will be running throughout the houe (especially downstairs) coming back to the MDF.

I put a secondary controller in the garage so that it can be wired to the garage controller since I won't be able to pull cables from the main controller to it after I build the house.

i'm looking for some feedback on my equipment locations, the type of equipment i've selected, what sort of EA controller I need (for the main and secondary one) to suit this design. 

is there any must haves that I might have missed that would be good to have from day1

 

 

 

 

 

 

[C4 User]

If you can run 2 or even 3 2” electrical conduits from your basement to the second floor attic. From there you can easily run wires from basement to any wall location. 

[OceanDad]

Unless I'm missing something, you might have a zigbee mesh problem.  Your EA-5 is in a rack in one corner of the house, and there's a secondary controller in the garage.  Other than that, there's nothing to repeat the zigbee signal.  You are using Lutron for your lighting, so there's no light switches dotted around to do the job.  You might need a couple of EA-1's tucked away behind TV's to help out, or even a few strategically placed wireless keypads.

[LollerAgent]

I think a second controller for your garage may be overkill if all you're doing is using it for the garage door openers.

Instead, consider supplementing your RA2 Select (also consider RA3 for a new build) switches/dimmers with C4 keypads.  C4 keypads are *great* for triggering lighting scenes (even Lutron ones), controlling media, other fun and useful automations (like Hello/Goodbye/etc), etc.  They also are Zigbee repeaters which enhance your Zigbee mesh.  This is important since you are using Lutron for lighting.  Keypads really really enhance a C4 install and make it more usable.  You can also get wireless keypads that include a lighting load.

Once you have established a strong mesh, you may consider just using Z2IO's for your garage door controls.

[msgreenf]

or an IOX for your garage doors and just home run the wiring back to your wiring closet

[Neo1738]

+1 to get conduit run to attic and/or conduit to each possible tv drop. Would be expensive but never have to worry about it again. I had it in my plans but ended up not doing it and I still don't know why. Think my dealer told me he could drop them pretty easy from the attic. In fact we last minute decided to do power shades for upstairs and he already had extra cable in the ceiling ready to go. One of the many reasons I love my dealer, thinking ahead.

[Jfizzle]

Come in when the building crew leaves and install your own conduit runs.

[krris]

@Neo1738.  @C4 User
 

With the conduit runs from tv point/ basement to attic that you’re referring to, is it flex tube or some other type and what size? 
 

I could ask for it from theatre , living  (where the tv and projector screen will go ) and from the study ( where my rack with part of the gear is ) going up to the attic. 

 

how does it get presented in the downstairs rooms , is it terminated into like a wall plate with those bristles or left behind the wall with a dummy plate so you can always pull out the plate to access it? 

[Neo1738]

6 hours ago, krris said:

@Neo1738.  @C4 User
 

With the conduit runs from tv point/ basement to attic that you’re referring to, is it flex tube or some other type and what size? 
 

I could ask for it from theatre , living  (where the tv and projector screen will go ) and from the study ( where my rack with part of the gear is ) going up to the attic. 

 

how does it get presented in the downstairs rooms , is it terminated into like a wall plate with those bristles or left behind the wall with a dummy plate so you can always pull out the plate to access it? 

Most places by code won't let you have a direct vent into your attic (fire hazard will let it go faster) so you get like 3" hard pvc w only 45's no 90s and have it capped at both ends until you need it. Conduit to TV locations etc perfectly fine (most places have to see about your areas code) and same thing 2 or 3 " only 45s no 90s. 

[cdcllc]

Congratulations!  And I hope you are enjoying the process of spec'ing a new home.  Here are a few items to consider:

• I know it stinks to pay the price, but wiring while the walls are open is orders of magnitude easier and cleaner than after.  For our house, pre-wire locations were left with a generous amount of wire behind the wall or ceiling locations where the future install would take place.
• This is probably covered as part of the individual room installs, but surround speaker wiring and placement for Theater and Living
• Pre-wire for speakers Alfresco, Master Suite, Balcony, Activity
• Assume WiFi WAPs covered under separate plan
• The Zigbee mesh comments above seem to be biggest concern and a good conversation to have with your dealer.

Good luck and I hope everything goes well.

[krris]

@cdcllc are you referring to another pair of in-ceiling speakers in Alfresco, Master Suite, Balcony, Activity ?

[zaphod]

17 hours ago, msgreenf said:

or an IOX for your garage doors and just home run the wiring back to your wiring closet

If you mean run the wiring from the garage back to an IOX in the wiring closet then do you need an IOX?  Why not just use the relays and sensors on the EA-5, assuming that they aren't already allocated for something else?

[msgreenf]

1 minute ago, zaphod said:

If you mean run the wiring from the garage back to an IOX in the wiring closet then do you need an IOX?  Why not just use the relays and sensors on the EA-5, assuming that they aren't already allocated for something else?

Right. Capacity. 

[rocky350z]

11 hours ago, krris said:

@Neo1738.  @C4 User
 

With the conduit runs from tv point/ basement to attic that you’re referring to, is it flex tube or some other type and what size? 
 

I could ask for it from theatre , living  (where the tv and projector screen will go ) and from the study ( where my rack with part of the gear is ) going up to the attic. 

 

how does it get presented in the downstairs rooms , is it terminated into like a wall plate with those bristles or left behind the wall with a dummy plate so you can always pull out the plate to access it? 

I had them run flex tube from the central rack to each TV, I wish I would have specified the size and run 2" or 2.5", type ran like 1.5 which works but was tight running 3 cat6, rg6, and now wanting to pull a fiber through.  remember to pull another string through each time you pull a line for future needs.  I also have the plate with bristle behind each TV and that is where the flex tube terminates.  

[zaphod]

36 minutes ago, rocky350z said:

I had them run flex tube from the central rack to each TV, I wish I would have specified the size and run 2" or 2.5", type ran like 1.5 which works but was tight running 3 cat6, rg6, and now wanting to pull a fiber through.  remember to pull another string through each time you pull a line for future needs.  I also have the plate with bristle behind each TV and that is where the flex tube terminates.  

Flex tube like this?

 

[msgreenf]

Smurf tubing 

[ekohn00]

4 hours ago, zaphod said:

Flex tube like this?

 

that reminds me, we have about a 2" tube from the basement to the attic and I've been wanted to run an ethernet line and install a WAP in the ceiling upstairs.... after all these years I'm afraid that the tube probably zig zags and I won't be able to pull the cable and I'll just be mad!

[OceanDad]

27 minutes ago, ekohn00 said:

I'm afraid that the tube probably zig zags and I won't be able to pull the cable and I'll just be mad!

Use a long reel of strong cord/fishing line with a plastic bag tied on the end to act like a piston.  Then use a shop vac at the other end of the tube to suck the line through.  Works long distances, round bends, whatever.  Then use that cord to pull your cable (and a new string).

[ekohn00]

19 minutes ago, OceanDad said:

Use a long reel of strong cord/fishing line with a plastic bag tied on the end to act like a piston.  Then use a shop vac at the other end of the tube to suck the line through.  Works long distances, round bends, whatever.  Then use that cord to pull your cable (and a new string).

the cord is already there....   the big fear is actually that it was installed by a new home builder in northern VA. meaning if there can be problems, there will be problems!

 

[C4 User]

When pulling your cables thru the conduit, be sure to use electrical wire lubricant as you pull the cables. This is a foam lubricant that dries and then is like a teflon coating on your conduit and wires. Spray the foam lubricant into the conduit about every 5 to 10 feet of cable pull. This will make your cable pulling life much happier. It will also help a lot if your ever need to pull additional cables thru the same conduit.

[cdcllc]

23 hours ago, krris said:

@cdcllc are you referring to another pair of in-ceiling speakers in Alfresco, Master Suite, Balcony, Activity ?

Sorry - must have missed it; looking for the solid blue circles for speakers!  Nope - one pair will do!

[zaphod]

14 hours ago, C4 User said:

When pulling your cables thru the conduit, be sure to use electrical wire lubricant as you pull the cables. This is a foam lubricant that dries and then is like a teflon coating on your conduit and wires. Spray the foam lubricant into the conduit about every 5 to 10 feet of cable pull. This will make your cable pulling life much happier. It will also help a lot if your ever need to pull additional cables thru the same conduit.

Ok, this is starting to get NSFW!  When you pull your wire, make sure you use lots of lube!

 

Here's a video showing how much wire lube helps: 

 

[krris]

what would be the appropriate rack size required to house C4 controller, CCTV NVR , Triad Amps and a couple of network switches? would a 600mm width x 600mm depth be fine?

[snowcatxx87]

Why two racks? 

[rocky350z]

On 1/28/2022 at 12:55 PM, zaphod said:

Flex tube like this?

 

Yes exactly, It worked great.