Help Selecting Smart Lighting Platform

[cdcllc]

We’re rapidly tiring of replacing filament light bulbs in our house!  Dozens of BR30 can lights installed and seems we are replacing 1 every week or every other.  So I bought a box of LED BR30s from GE.  I wasn’t paying attention to the color and got a very bright white vs. soft white.  Now the kitchen looks like the deli area at Publix.  So I have to make a change and figure I might as well start down the color LED path.

The first big question is which platform.  I’ve read a ton of articles on the forum as well as the internet in general and it still seems pretty murky.  I’m thinking my objectives (in priority order) are:

1. Robust Control4 integration.  Two way status with vendor app and full-function/wide functionality adopted in the driver(s).
2. Utilization of Control4 ADP-120, KP-120 and Aux switch to drive the load at least for total on/off functionality – I really don’t want to change out any of this infrastructure or re-wire.  I don’t care if dimming has to be programmatically changed to light driver, but I would still want to be able to dim/brighten the light(s) on Control4 keypad long press.
3. Reliable and broad product line from a stable company that will continue to invest in the platform.  Although I realize good Control4 integration can insulate from individual vendor details a great deal, there is not enough standardization and too much complexity to totally isolate (i.e. very different from a Bond Bridge RF signal generator to multiple vendor products – and don’t get me wrong! We love our Bond Bridge with Chowmain driver C4 integration; couldn’t pry it out of our hands at this point).
4. Really great bulbs and strips including functionality/app – doesn’t have to be best of the best, but do want top tier in this space.
5. Accessories (i.e. TV-sync, etc)
6. Cost
7. Product control technology – Wifi would probably be better since it is already in place, but I’d be fine installing a zigbee bridge(s)

My only concern for this scope is in-door products.  Any opinions whether a single vendor stands out on these objectives?  Single vendor vs. Best-of-Breed strategy opinions?

Implementation will be very small at first – 8 BR30 can lights in the kitchen.  Future plans would be more can lights, replace under-counter fluorescent lights, add TV LED-sync lighting.  Thanks for your help.

[eggzlot]

I am confused - do you have C4 switches/dimmers and want to know about compatible bulbs?

If what you got was too bright, look at the kelvin and lumens.  Indoors we use 2700 Kelvin bulbs with 750 lumens.  Its a nice soft white and one of the softer looks you'll get this.  Does not matter what switch/dimmer you use, its the bulb giving off the harsh white like you are referencing that you don't like.

Personally, get cheap bulbs (LED or other) that you can replace on your own, then get a platform that has compatible switches/dimmers like C4, Lutron, etc.  I personally would not invest in smart bulbs.

[cdcllc]

Yes - I have C4 switches/dimmers.  The reason I was looking for smart bulbs was to add variable color lights.  Are there variable color lights that can be directly set from C4 (i.e. add a soft blue tone that matches the accent color of the room)?

[WhyPhy]

There are bulbs that work directly with Control4 Dimmers that have a "dim to warm" capability. So as the Control4 switch decreases the power to the bulb, the bulb dims and the color shifts to a warmer color (similar to incandescent bulbs.) Here's an example.

If you want a true RGB bulb, that can be any color at any brightness, these cannot be directly controlled by a Control4 Switch, but they can be indirectly controlled through a driver. The Control4 switch would be set to have the power to the bulb always be at 100%. Then when you press a button on the Control4 dimmer, the dimmer communicates with the Control4 master controller (director), which then sends the command (via the network) to the bulb to turn on/off/go to specific brightness/specific color, etc. This is a much more complicated arrangement and can be prone to reliability issues.

The upcoming release of Control4 OS 3.3 has more direct control over RGB colors (through touchscreens) without having to rely so much on third-party drivers. I don't know which lighting systems it will work best with, but it should be released shortly. Maybe others here can give specific recommendations.

In general, Philips Hue, LIFX, and TP-Link are the most commonly-used options for RGB bulbs.

[Matt Lowe]

second for Philips hue if you want to retrofit a solution. if you want to do it correctly get DMX compatible lights and build around that.

[fleon]

Don't get Philips Hue right now.  Huge bug that started with a January update.   You'll get a lot of popcorn lights (lights coming on at different times).  If they fix this, I am a huge fan of the Hue lights.... until they do, I have 11 Hue hubs that are totally screwed up.

 

 

[LollerAgent]

11 hours ago, fleon said:

Don't get Philips Hue right now.  Huge bug that started with a January update.   You'll get a lot of popcorn lights (lights coming on at different times).  If they fix this, I am a huge fan of the Hue lights.... until they do, I have 11 Hue hubs that are totally screwed up.

 

 

Don't think I'm experiencing this issue.

[Matt Lowe]

I notice it a bit. hue changed the group light functionality and they want you to make the groups in the hue app now.

Also some big changes coming soon on the control4 side that will make it even better! can't wait!

 

[TundraSonic]

Something to keep in mind is that the color/light quality of most LED's, including Hue, is still quite poor vs incandescent. Some LED's are a bit better than this chart indicates but not by much. Venders have learned how to inexpensively game the CRI and CRI-16 quality systems which is why TM-30 was developed but unfortunately TM-30 is still not required for consumer lamps. 

One health issue is that LED light quality is likely the cause of is increased problems of people not sleeping (though it's not just a too much blue problem as was once thought but rather a lack of full even spectrum). Poor color quality and flicker are also both causes of headaches and nausea.

 

[C4 User]

23 hours ago, LollerAgent said:

Don't think I'm experiencing this issue.

Me either. My Hue’s (and I have a lot more than 11) are working great within the Hue app. I can’t wait to see what the upcoming C4 release brings to color lighting control but something BIG is certainly needed in this area. @fleon it may be that you do not have a strong enough Hue network.

[fleon]

On 4/22/2022 at 9:07 AM, LollerAgent said:

Don't think I'm experiencing this issue.

Interestingly enough, Hue released a new update yesterday that fixed the issues.   

 

And @C4 User, it's not the mesh.  I have 11 hubs, all pretty close to the lights they control.  Worked fine for 3 years - it was definitely a software bug.  I'd been talking with Hue tech support about it since February.  

[C4 User]

Just now, fleon said:

Interestingly enough, Hue released a new update yesterday that fixed the issues.   

 

And @C4 User, it's not the mesh.  I have 11 hubs, all pretty close to the lights they control.  Worked fine for 3 years - it was definitely a software bug.  I'd been talking with Hue tech support about it since February.  

Glad you got it fixed

[cdcllc]

Thanks to all for your feedback.  It's very helpful.

[fleon]

@cdcllcAs long as the Hue system doesn't end up with a bug again (which, with any updating smart devices, is always a concern), Hue is a very good solution.  It's very responsive, very quick, has a lot of driver support (particularly if you use the C4 native drivers and the unilogiq driver together).  

The two-way communication is very lacking.  I have mine turned off, in fact because of some of the delays with it on.  But I haven't needed it.  Generally, with very very few failures, it just works.  You hit a light switch and the lights come on.  You have C4 change to a different scene, it just comes on. For the cost, it's an excellent solution.  I have Hue lights from 5 years ago that are still supported and work just fine.  

There is a good bit of programming to get it to do what you want, depending on how complicated you need it, but a home user can set up their own scenes and your dealer can just link to those.  The nice thing about doing them as scenes (requires Unilogic driver) is that you can change the scene yourself without paying a dealer.  

The Hue line has a lot of options - lamp bulbs, overhead bulbs, outdoor lights, motion sensors, TV bias lights, lightstrips.  As far as options, it's probably your best bet. 

There is a TV-sync box like you mentioned.  It's terrible.  The light sync is fantastic.  The degradation in picture quality is noticable.  You can fix that with a splitter, but that has its own issues.

Wifi vs zigbee for this really won't matter.  You need a Hue zigbee hub to integrate with C4, which is around $20 if you get it bundled.  You may need multiple hubs, depending on the number of lights.  I have 350 hue lights.  I have to have 11 hubs. 

There are a lot of other color lighting options out there, but you either have much higher added costs, sometimes including rewiring, or you have a cheaper, younger product line that doesn't have as much of a track record.

 

Hope that answers most of your questions.

[LollerAgent]

22 hours ago, fleon said:

Wifi vs zigbee for this really won't matter.  You need a Hue zigbee hub to integrate with C4, which is around $20 if you get it bundled.  You may need multiple hubs, depending on the number of lights.  I have 350 hue lights.  I have to have 11 hubs. 

There are a lot of other color lighting options out there, but you either have much higher added costs, sometimes including rewiring, or you have a cheaper, younger product line that doesn't have as much of a track record.

 

Hope that answers most of your questions.

Thats a lotta bulbs and hubs!

I don't have nearly as many (maybe 15-20), but I typically just add them into advanced lighting scenes (which typically mix Hue+Lutron lighting).  Are you saying you create scenes in Hue and then just activate them in C4?

[fleon]

I have two drivers that control my lights.  I have the native C4 "brightness" driver.  I use it with my Alexa integration to turn on/turn off/dim the lights.  Works well.   I also have the Unilogic driver which I use with most of my physical buttons.  The unilogic driver doesn't do individual lights.  It does groups and scenes, however.  It doesn't integrate with alexa, however.

The nice thing about C4, Alexa, and multiple hubs is that - since Alexa is telling C4 what do to, and C4 is controlling my hubs - there isn't the problem with controlling multiple lights on different hubs with voice.

If you start doing much more hue, make sure you don't fill up one hub.  Leave yourself a few slots.  Hue officially supports about 55 lights per hub, but you can do 65.  However, for reliability and scaling, when you get to 40 lights, just get another hub. 

[LollerAgent]

21 hours ago, fleon said:

I have two drivers that control my lights.  I have the native C4 "brightness" driver.  I use it with my Alexa integration to turn on/turn off/dim the lights.  Works well.   I also have the Unilogic driver which I use with most of my physical buttons.  The unilogic driver doesn't do individual lights.  It does groups and scenes, however.  It doesn't integrate with alexa, however.

So, you don't used Advanced Lighting Scenes (ALS) in Control4 for your Hue loads?  You just trigger Hue scenes by binding a scene to a keypad button using the Unilogic driver?

[whatisland]

So, you don't used Advanced Lighting Scenes (ALS) in Control4 for your Hue loads?  You just trigger Hue scenes by binding a scene to a keypad button using the Unilogic driver?

@Lolleragent, what do you mean "advanced lighting scenes in control4 for Hue loads"; can you please point me in the right direction regarding what's possible with control4 and Hue? I have some hue lights over which I have rudimentary control (on/off and brightness) in control4. I do not know which driver my installer used. Is there an option to do more, such as change scenes etc? I apologise for hijacking the thread, I have looked through the forum and thought I had an understanding of the limits of hue & control4.

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LollerAgent]

Just now, whatisland said:

@Lolleragent, what do you mean "advanced lighting scenes in control4 for Hue loads"; can you please point me in the right direction regarding what's possible with control4 and Hue? I have some hue lights over which I have rudimentary control (on/off and brightness) in control4. I do not know which driver my installer used. Is there an option to do more, such as change scenes etc? I apologise for hijacking the thread, I have looked through the forum and thought I had an understanding of the limits of hue & control4.

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not sure how to describe it any better.  There is a concept of "Advanced Lighting Scenes" in Control4 (it's an Agent).  You can add lighting loads to scenes to control them.  

[fleon]

No.  I don't use the lighting scenes agent.   I've found it to be very unreliable with IP lights.  

[Andrew luecke]

57 minutes ago, fleon said:

No.  I don't use the lighting scenes agent.   I've found it to be very unreliable with IP lights.  

With the exception of HSV/RGB channels, It shouldn't be unreliable (and if you add delays, even those channels should be fine). Definitely contact your driver developer if they're not working properly  

[fleon]

The driver developer is C4.  It's a very well documented problem that has been true for years.  

[Andrew luecke]

2 hours ago, fleon said:

The driver developer is C4.  It's a very well documented problem that has been true for years.  

Thought you were mentioning TCPIP based lights in general.. Never use the Hue brightness drivers (that's possible)

[416to305]

On 4/21/2022 at 10:01 PM, fleon said:

Don't get Philips Hue right now.  Huge bug that started with a January update.   You'll get a lot of popcorn lights (lights coming on at different times).  If they fix this, I am a huge fan of the Hue lights.... until they do, I have 11 Hue hubs that are totally screwed up.

 

 

News to me, I have 80 Hue lights over 3 bridges and I don't have this issue at all.

[zaphod]

Why do some of you folks have so many Hue hubs?  Is it due to a maximum number of lights per hub?  Or is it to get a decent signal throughout a larger house?