New Construction Wiring for Phillips Hue

[msgreenf]

@Andrew luecke

[therockhr]

On 6/8/2022 at 6:28 PM, RyanE said:

I wish Control4 had keypads that had a passthrough hard switch like the dimmers / switches that would turn switch the 'passthrough' load on and off.

RyanE

I interestingly got a facebook ad the other day about these switches https://get.invisihome.com/ . Not even launched yet but this switch looks to have 4 modes; smart (pass-through to use with smart bulbs), dimmable, non-dimmable and remote (for in a 3 way). Kind of neat idea and seems to be what you are talking about.

[RyanE]

4 hours ago, therockhr said:

I interestingly got a facebook ad the other day about these switches https://get.invisihome.com/ . Not even launched yet but this switch looks to have 4 modes; smart (pass-through to use with smart bulbs), dimmable, non-dimmable and remote (for in a 3 way). Kind of neat idea and seems to be what you are talking about.

While it looks like it could solve some issues, I'm generally not of the opinion that multi-function, single SKU products are a great idea.  For smart bulbs, you would only use the pass-through functionality of something like this, and you've added parts costs for a dimmer where it's not needed.

RyanE

[therockhr]

15 minutes ago, RyanE said:

While it looks like it could solve some issues, I'm generally not of the opinion that multi-function, single SKU products are a great idea.  For smart bulbs, you would only use the pass-through functionality of something like this, and you've added parts costs for a dimmer where it's not needed.

RyanE

For Control4 and non big box store products, yes, multiple SKU's. For something that would be available in home depot or for "mass market" adoption I think a multi-purpose solution might not be a bad idea.

Anyway, I believe smart bulbs are here to stay and having that pass-through keypad from control4 that you mentioned seems like a logical next move.

[Cyknight]

25 minutes ago, therockhr said:

Anyway, I believe smart bulbs are here to stay and having that pass-through keypad from control4 that you mentioned seems like a logical next move.

Wanting to clarify this for future readers: You COULD right now put a keypad in place of an existing switch, and 'hardwire' the can/fixture through there, but you have no way of shutting off power (short of the breaker) in this method - meaning you can't turn 'off' the lights when replacing bulbs or troubleshooting issues.

It's that last bit where I and others say we would really like to see an 'updated' version of the C4 keypad that can do a pass-through power to a terminal or wire - but has (similar to dimmers now - well at least in non-contemporary style- a built in 'power off' switch in the top bar.

A matter of safety/mitigating risk.

[RyanE]

13 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

A matter of safety/mitigating risk.

Exactly. Well put.

Also, I would like a local 'complete shutoff' in case the control system were down or unavailable.  If your smart bulbs are hardwired and your wifi or 3rd-party hub / controller is out, they're staying on for a while... 

Likewise, if a smart bulb needs to be 'rebooted' for some reason (it's lost it's brain somehow), a local off/on would be convenient.

RyanE

[therockhr]

41 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

It's that last bit where I and others say we would really like to see an 'updated' version of the C4 keypad that can do a pass-through power to a terminal or wire - but has (similar to dimmers now - well at least in non-contemporary style- a built in 'power off' switch in the top bar.

A matter of safety/mitigating risk.

would you want one of the buttons to actually be a "power off" button? you really dont want anyone to be able to remove power to those smart bulbs for normal operation. maybe some kind of small pull tab or something at the very top/bottom that could be removed if you ever needed it? maybe that is what you were meaning.

[RyanE]

1 hour ago, therockhr said:

... maybe some kind of small pull tab or something at the very top/bottom that could be removed if you ever needed it? maybe that is what you were meaning.

I mean exactly like Gen3 (and ealier) dimmers have, which many people are unaware of.

Gen3 dimmers have a small bar across the top of the dimmer, and if you press in on one side of the bar, the other side will pop out, which will open power going to the dimmer.  Press the bar back flat, the power is back.

RyanE

[therockhr]

17 minutes ago, RyanE said:

I mean exactly like Gen3 (and ealier) dimmers have, which many people are unaware of.

Gen3 dimmers have a small bar across the top of the dimmer, and if you press in on one side of the bar, the other side will pop out, which will open power going to the dimmer.  Press the bar back flat, the power is back.

RyanE

ah yeah nice. that would fit the bill.

i thought smart bulbs were kind of dumb until I recently purchased a few of the tp-link bulbs and strips. pretty neat and wife and daughter love them.

[C4 User]

3 hours ago, RyanE said:

I mean exactly like Gen3 (and ealier) dimmers have, which many people are unaware of.

Gen3 dimmers have a small bar across the top of the dimmer, and if you press in on one side of the bar, the other side will pop out, which will open power going to the dimmer.  Press the bar back flat, the power is back.

RyanE

I was wondering when this was going to come out. Exactly what I do with all my lighting. I use all dimmer keypads and have the load disconnected from the buttons. So the buttons control the smart lighting. I then have a room setup that no one else in the house uses (can’t wait until C4 has user defined room control) that has the load switches shown so I can easily turn-off or power cycle the loads if necessary. Note this came in handy with the recent update to 3.3 as a few of my hidden loads were turned off during the update.

[cdcllc]

I’m dipping my toe in the water with Philips Hue.  I have KD-120’s everywhere and a couple of questions about wiring for hue:

1) how do you determine which button physically controls a given load?  I was thinking turn off the EA-5 and start pushing buttons; I don’t have HE.  Or should I call my dealer?

2) can you programmatically re-map “long press” dimming from the KD-120 to the hue driver and mimic the current functionality while simultaneously keeping a short press to natively toggle power on/off?  And map double / triple presses to hue scenes?

Thanks 

 

[C4 User]

50 minutes ago, cdcllc said:

I’m dipping my toe in the water with Philips Hue.  I have KD-120’s everywhere and a couple of questions about wiring for hue:

1) how do you determine which button physically controls a given load?  I was thinking turn off the EA-5 and start pushing buttons; I don’t have HE.  Or should I call my dealer?

2) can you programmatically re-map “long press” dimming from the KD-120 to the hue driver and mimic the current functionality while simultaneously keeping a short press to natively toggle power on/off?  And map double / triple presses to hue scenes?

Thanks 

 

1. Easiest is for your dealer to tell you which button(s) control the load on each of the KD-120’s. But, you should be able to play with the buttons and figure it out.

2. Generally, if you are using single/double/triple press programming on buttons, you do not want to program on the press/release - unless you have a specific (and rare) use case. The reason is a single/double/triple press is still a press/release and C4 will execute both.

[RAV]

1 hour ago, cdcllc said:

I’m dipping my toe in the water with Philips Hue.  I have KD-120’s everywhere and a couple of questions about wiring for hue:

1) how do you determine which button physically controls a given load?  I was thinking turn off the EA-5 and start pushing buttons; I don’t have HE.  Or should I call my dealer?

2) can you programmatically re-map “long press” dimming from the KD-120 to the hue driver and mimic the current functionality while simultaneously keeping a short press to natively toggle power on/off?  And map double / triple presses to hue scenes?

Thanks 

 

KD120 can be told in composer which of the 6 buttons is a physical load toggle. Once set, that's always true, it's not sensing a loss of communications or anything, it just always and forever toggles the load. You can overlay programming on top of that if you want, but every time that button is pressed the load toggles.

So you could have a load off button, where when the processors on line, the light turns right back on if the physical button is used. And only if the communications is offline, then it functions as a true toggle. (Physical button controls the load, programming on button, delay or not then turn on load).

[Cyknight]

20 hours ago, therockhr said:

ah yeah nice. that would fit the bill.

And that is what I meant as well - not one of the keypad buttons, but the airgap bar

[RyanE]

6 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

And that is what I meant as well - not one of the keypad buttons, but the airgap bar

I'm also concerned with dimmers driving 'Smart' LED bulbs.  They don't usually put out a full 120v waveform, and could introduce noise into the bulb electronics.  The air gap (or a relay) wouldn't have that issue.

[therockhr]

33 minutes ago, RyanE said:

I'm also concerned with dimmers driving 'Smart' LED bulbs.  They don't usually put out a full 120v waveform, and could introduce noise into the bulb electronics.  The air gap (or a relay) wouldn't have that issue.

is this something you think Control4 will implement? while its a small sample size, it seems like everyone in this thread is like "yeah we need that".

[RyanE]

1 hour ago, therockhr said:

is this something you think Control4 will implement? while its a small sample size, it seems like everyone in this thread is like "yeah we need that".

No idea.  I'm not in 'product', and even if I knew anything about it, I couldn't really discuss anything I knew in any case.

[C4 User]

5 hours ago, RyanE said:

I'm also concerned with dimmers driving 'Smart' LED bulbs.  They don't usually put out a full 120v waveform, and could introduce noise into the bulb electronics.  The air gap (or a relay) wouldn't have that issue.

I’ve used Keypad Dimmers with smart bulbs for years. So far no known issues. The dimmer properties are set by my dealer so that minimum on level is at 100% and ramp is set to fastest setting.

Of course, a Keypad Switch would be ideal for use with smart bulbs.

[fleon]

On 6/8/2022 at 11:50 AM, CTMatthew said:

I can't imagine basing a home design on Philips Hue. That's not asking for trouble, it's demanding it. 

Why say that?

[fleon]

On 6/21/2022 at 6:46 PM, C4 User said:

I’ve used Keypad Dimmers with smart bulbs for years. So far no known issues. The dimmer properties are set by my dealer so that minimum on level is at 100% and ramp is set to fastest setting.

Of course, a Keypad Switch would be ideal for use with smart bulbs.

Yeah, I have ....quite a few Hue bulbs, almost all on dimmers.  I have them set to never go off.   Haven't had a problem yet.

[Cyknight]

On 6/21/2022 at 4:46 PM, C4 User said:

I’ve used Keypad Dimmers with smart bulbs for years. So far no known issues. The dimmer properties are set by my dealer so that minimum on level is at 100% and ramp is set to fastest setting.

Of course, a Keypad Switch would be ideal for use with smart bulbs.

Yup, but every time we do it, we make clear that we cannot guarantee the longevity of bulbs ... I'd rather not have to go through that if I don't have to.

[Cyknight]

On 6/25/2022 at 7:16 AM, fleon said:

Why say that?

Because HUE was never intended to work with a full house of individual bulbs needing to be addressed.

A lot of houses we see would be looking at over a hundred, many even over 200 bulbs.... I can think of one house that has over 400 I was at recently (client and I were chatting about him wanting to be changing out all his old incandescent bulbs to LED).

Often pot light 'sets' can be 6-8 or more bulbs - so you're looking to on average to be dealing with 6-10 times as many 'devices' as you would using a dimmer solution.

Just because you 'can' doesn't mean you 'should'.

Nothing against HUE, but it's aim is to add colour and specialty tone control to areas easily, and some ability to easily create a 'smart' lighting setup for schedules (ie a way to change  your outdoor lights to be scheduled without having to get a full blown system of some sort) - I would NOT want to integrate more than maybe 50 HUE bulbs in a single Control4 system (and even then likely have it divided over 2-3 bridges)

[therockhr]

14 hours ago, Cyknight said:

Because HUE was never intended to work with a full house of individual bulbs needing to be addressed.

A lot of houses we see would be looking at over a hundred, many even over 200 bulbs.... I can think of one house that has over 400 I was at recently (client and I were chatting about him wanting to be changing out all his old incandescent bulbs to LED).

Often pot light 'sets' can be 6-8 or more bulbs - so you're looking to on average to be dealing with 6-10 times as many 'devices' as you would using a dimmer solution.

Just because you 'can' doesn't mean you 'should'.

Nothing against HUE, but it's aim is to add colour and specialty tone control to areas easily, and some ability to easily create a 'smart' lighting setup for schedules (ie a way to change  your outdoor lights to be scheduled without having to get a full blown system of some sort) - I would NOT want to integrate more than maybe 50 HUE bulbs in a single Control4 system (and even then likely have it divided over 2-3 bridges)

Are you saying this is a problem because of the Hue technology or just the idea of having some many individual addressable bulbs? if its the problem of having so many individual addressable bulbs then Ketra would be a problem too.

I think you mentioned it but sometimes the "smart lighting" convo gets focused on the RGB capabilities of the bulbs and not on the tunable white aspect. As far as I know, you have to do smart bulbs to get tunable whites.

Had a convo on the C4 Discord the other day about a guy who outfitted his whole home in Hue and low voltage c4 keypads. Wish he would come on here and give a breakdown on how he did it.

[Cyknight]

5 hours ago, therockhr said:

some many individual addressable bulbs?

Primarily. But How HUE addresses things is part of it too.

5 hours ago, therockhr said:

who outfitted his whole home

I've no doubt how he did it - but I already said: because you can, doesn't mean you should.

5 hours ago, therockhr said:

if its the problem of having so many individual addressable bulbs then Ketra would be a problem too.

Did you see me recommend that instead?

5 hours ago, therockhr said:

As far as I know, you have to do smart bulbs to get tunable whites.

What makes you think that? DMX can do this just fine as well, just to give one established option.

 

 

Again, I'm not saying don't use HUE, or other bulb options, at all - just saying that I don't think it's an alternative to implementing a full lighting system (C4, Lutron, whomever) that controls LOADS for a whole home.

Consider this:

-RGB is fub for certain areas

-Tunable whites are good, but consider HOW OFTEN you actually CHANGE them at all - in most cases tunable white is used to set a preferred level, then it always gets turned on to that level, excepting likely bedrooms.

[TundraSonic]

On 6/20/2022 at 3:05 PM, RyanE said:

I mean exactly like Gen3 (and ealier) dimmers have, which many people are unaware of.

Gen3 dimmers have a small bar across the top of the dimmer, and if you press in on one side of the bar, the other side will pop out, which will open power going to the dimmer.  Press the bar back flat, the power is back.

RyanE

Personally I would prefer a security style where you have a slot through which you insert a key to flip the switch on/off. Eliminates accidentally turning something on/off and allows for easier on/off sequences such as is needed for LIFX.  Some places where we had switches/dimmers we switched to security switches after moving to Hue/LIFX lamps.