Control4 Significant Shortfalls

[nevets23]

I realize I'm probably going to get a lot of smart ass remarks b/c it's clear by many posts throughout the forums that some people on here think that control4 can do no wrong, but I am going to say it anyway, because it's been bothering me for quite a while, and was exacerbated by the release of 2.9.

I've only had my control4 system for a couple months, and while I definitely like the system overall, there are many things that it is lacking, in both the way the company operates and in the software/system. I was hoping the system software shortfalls would be addressed by 2.9, but to my dismay, that did not happen.

Lack of geofencing. Given how expensive control4 systems are, and the fact that the technology is available, there is no excuse for why this hasn't been integrated already (or at the very least, at least announced that the feature will be forthcoming - the fact that control4 is so tight lipped about the development of new features (even once they release them - why in the world would you not provide release notes to end users/the public when you release new software??). The fact of the matter is Apple just released HomeKit, which allows you to use geofencing with connected devices, yet Control4 doesn't have that capability? Control4's only focus is home automation, yet Apple, a company that focuses its efforts in numerous different areas was able to offer this feature before them. I haven't been able to test HomeKit out yet, and due to its infancy and the limited amount of products out there for it right now, you know it won't stay that way for long. Control4 is supposed to be the industry leader and on the cutting edge of home automation, which is what its customers want, expect, and certainly pay a pretty penny for due to its pricing. Given the foregoing, there truly shouldn't be one item/feature that another company (especially not one that competes in multiple different industries such as Apple) ever releases related to home automation that Control4 hasn't had integrated/offered for a significant period of time, let alone fail to offer it at all. Control4's customers pay to have cutting edge, and makes me extremely frustrated, especially given the amount of money I spent on my system, that there are features like that missing.

Another feature that is missing, and absolutely should be integrated into the system by now is the "doorbell to your phone" and two-way communication features that DoorBird and Ring doorbell offer. Again, why this is missing is beyond me....the technology is obviously there at this point, so what in the world is going on?

As far as I can tell, os 2.9 offers nothing of significant value, absent the integration of alexa. I saw many news articles mention that you can now change the icons on your mobile and touch screens to a grid instead of a circle....awesome!!! Not! What a meaningless feature. If that's the type of upgrades Control4 is spending its time on, they are doomed, and I apparently wasted my money.

In terms of the way Control4 operates, I think they are making a big mistake by failing to give complete control over systems to their owners. The quality control/end user screwing up the system issue isn't a valid argument. End of story. Dealers should be there to support end users if/when they need help. The fact that I have to call my dealer to upgrade my system to 2.9 and change the name of certain devices in my system is ludicrous. It's not only annoying, but in my situation, my dealer is incredibly slow. I asked my dealer to update my system the day after 2.9 was released....still haven't heard back from him. No, it's not critical, but again annoying.

Despite all of these issues, however, I do think Control4 is a solid system, but its lacking in numerous critical areas, and is going to alienate a lot of propsective and current customers if it doesn't get its act together. The DIY market is real, and Control4 needs to get with the program. Offering DIY products won't kill the dealers, because there are tons of customers that either don't have the knowledge or time to install or manage their systems. By offering DIY products and software, however, opens the company up to a much wider market. The fact that Control4 tells you to talk to your dealer if you call them is absurd. Without the end user, Control4 doesn't exist, so the company should be offering 24/7 technical support at the least for its customers (if the system fails and your dealer isn't available 24/7, you have to wait until they have time or decide to get back to you). Ignoring the end user and only communicating with dealers is certainly not a way to make your customers feel good about spending any money on your products.

Ironically, writing this post is probably pointless, because its clear, at least as of right now, Control4 doesn't read these forums or seem to care what its customer base wants/thinks. With that being said, I sincerely hope all of this changes, as I have a sunk a significant sum of money into my system, and I truly don't want to regret it.

I know other people share the same frustration, so hopefully this starts a conversation that gets some positive results/changes.

 

 

 

[cdepaola]

No offense but did you search the forum first to see if this had already been discussed? It has and at nauseam for years. C4 does to some extent read these forums, unofficially at the least. Agree or disagree "their" model is what it is and it is not unusual in nature.

Doorbells, doorbird has a driver available and folks have ring working to some degree with Alan's newest driver. C4 doesn't make doorbells, they make equipment to integrate the things we use and that others make.

C4 is not Apple by any stretch of the imagination. They don't have the resources to develop at the same pace as Apple or Samsung. This is just fact and not hard to understand, c4 is a small niche company.

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[nevets23]

It may have already been discussed, but apparently not enough then, because obviously nothing has changed.

Basically what you're saying is exactly my point about the Control4 doorstation...the company's own product is inferior to third-party products offerings. Think about your comment that control4 doesn't make doorbells.....they certainly make it seem like they do since they sell the Control4 doorstations. It is branded as a control4 product. They are slapping the control4 name on it, so it's their responsibility to make sure its up to par with competitors even though they aren't actually manufacturing it.

C4 doesn't have to be and in fact should not be Apple (Apple leads in many different industries), but it does need to be the leader in one: home automation. It may be a small niche company, but it doesn't mean they don't have to innovate at the same pace as Apple, Samsung, or any other tech company. I guarantee you if the company doesn't innovate at the same or faster pace as those companies, it will eventually go under, because companies like Apple and Samsung aren't going to slow down. Control4's model and pricing structure depends on it being ahead of the curve....that's what justifies the price the company charges for its products.....if the company falls behind in technology for whatever reason (including because it doesn't have the resources to develop at the same pace as Apple or Samsung), then why would anyone buy its products/pay the premium it charges, or put up with the dealer structure? The answer is people wouldn't.

I sincerely hope you're wrong about the company's R&D speed.

[spinny02]

Freedom of speech =)

Geofencing and the door bell are both valid points that should be addressed. I have a doorbird but have yet to install it because I am somewhat delaying in hopes that c4 will update to add cell view. I prefer to have an OEM unit to avoid any driver issues etc. 

Like you I do enjoy the system. There will always be something else to add. I am sure c4 will add these at some point. ( maybe sooner than later : hint hint ) 

 

[Bullseye]

C4 is NOT perfect, you're right on most of your complaints.  But I don't think there's a perfect company.  All of them have their + and -.  You live with some of the issues and fight against others!!!  Don't loose your sleep over it.  Yes, lots of $$$$, but most of the time you enjoy the system, at least I do.

If you have problems with your dealer you can try a remote dealer.  A good dealer makes a BIG difference.

[christophers]

i'm a super DIY person, love building, making, hacking, etc. control4 annoys the shit out of me with how closed it is, the slow catchup with technology, etc etc

that said, i'm pretty happy with my system. my wife is happy with it, and with the group here on these forums, we're able to "bypass" most of the limitations (or refusals) that c4 has, such as amazon echo. we had someone write an echo driver, which is awesome. and a lot of people think it's better than the official one (i'm using both, like them both). i also have a doorbird b/c of how closed the c4 doorstation was. while not perfect, the doorbird does what i want, and has a great c4 driver with it thanks to cinegration, so i'm happy with that

 

so yeah, c4 has issues, but a lot of companies do. i wish c4 would do a lot of things different, but when it comes to DIY systems, and other major ones (savant, crestron, etc), glad i chose c4! 

[msgreenf]

And there are other great features in 2.9. The new button UI is super for customization

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[johnpg]

nevets23, are you aware of Compose Home Edition? This would address the majority of your issues about configuring/programming the system yourself. I am planning to get a Control4 system soon and the availability of Composer HE is one of the key reasons I choose this system over others. Control4 gets a lot of grief for not being homeowner manageable, but it is the most configurable and programmable of all of the high-end automation systems. 

I think we all agree that geofencing is a no-brainer and should be there. I mean Control4 has a mobile app and it is not difficult to add geofencing features. They have been very aggressive with Apple Watch support, so I can only assume they don't have geofencing on purpose. What their reasons are is anyone's guess. 

As with geofencing, we'd probably all agree that SIP integration with mobile devices and on screen pop up of the camera on mobile devices would be great. I know it's only with iOS 10 that some of that is possible on the iPhone, so perhaps it's something they'll do in the future. 

Anyhow, I think you have good points, but I think in order to judge these things fairly you have to put them into the proper perspective.  Control4, when compared to the rest of the industry is way ahead in most areas. They absolutely deserve to be criticized and we have to hold them to a very high standard, but there's a lot more good than bad here. 

John

 

[wappinghigh]

Nevets. Once you realise it is an *extremely* conservative company with an *extremely* stubborn business model you will be more at peace with Control4. Taken me near on 5-6 years to realise that! So the answer to any frustration that develops is to use C4 for just that... extremely conservative and "stubborn" tasks... backbone control, notifications, alarms, lighting and as a basic Universal Remote and multiroom music system . ....that sort of thing. Just don't expect too much from the bells and whistles. IMHO, they have been resistant to change at the cutting edge for years. This (as it turns out) is sometimes not necessarily a bad thing. There is just one exception to this rule. - Alan Chow. Embrace anything to do with AlanC. *Particularly* the Full Kodi driver. My 2c. W.

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[Gary Leeds UK]

nevets23 - Well said.

The update are a but boring and C4 are bit slow (Yale keyless lock module has taken 13mth so far and still waiting).

However the systems work and over the 5 Years I have had C4, fair to say not many glitches.

My issue is everything is US based, we a company called Sky for our TV and I would just love to

bring all the channels in via typing in Post Code (Zip Code),

Please C4 someday

[wappinghigh]

5 minutes ago, Gary Leeds UK said:

My issue is everything is US based 

One day they will learn ol chap! = code for shift HQ back to the ol country! .. (P.S go Brexit).  

[prabeau]

1 hour ago, Gary Leeds UK said:

nevets23 - Well said.

The update are a but boring and C4 are bit slow (Yale keyless lock module has taken 13mth so far and still waiting).

However the systems work and over the 5 Years I have had C4, fair to say not many glitches.

My issue is everything is US based, we a company called Sky for our TV and I would just love to

bring all the channels in via typing in Post Code (Zip Code),

Please C4 someday

You are not alone  Wont take postal codes either !

 

[nevets23]

Love all the comments and input from everyone. While I would rather many of these items be addressed by C4, it does feel good to know other users share the same frustration/thoughts. I am aware that C4 offers more user management/customization for this type of system than many of its competitors and for that, I am grateful. I do use Composer HE, and it is certainly nice, as without it, my frustration would be much higher...to the point where I wouldn't have this system. Still though, just because C4 gives you more control than most of its competitors doesn't mean it's enough. My hope is that if enough users voice their opinions, that eventually C4 will listen. The company would be dumb to ignore our sentiments.

Overall, yes there is a lot more good than bad from the company, and I do enjoy the system....but if they continue to stay so conservative and stubborn with the updates that they don't advance fast enough, then competitors that continue to innovate will surpass them, and there will be no real reason for people to choose C4 over other options (especially if the competitors offer the same or better options/features at a lower price). As I pointed out earlier, it is already happening. To be clear, not saying that C4's product wouldn't still be very good...it just wouldn't have the differentiation it once had from its competitors.

Thanks for all the comments and let's keep the discussion going. Please listen C4!

[jfh]

21 hours ago, nevets23 said:

I think they are making a big mistake by failing to give complete control over systems to their owners. The quality control/end user screwing up the system issue isn't a valid argument. End of story. Dealers should be there to support end users if/when they need help. The fact that I have to call my dealer to upgrade my system to 2.9 and change the name of certain devices in my system is ludicrous. It's not only annoying, but in my situation, my dealer is incredibly slow. I asked my dealer to update my system the day after 2.9 was released....still haven't heard back from him. No, it's not critical, but again annoying.

 

Without the end user, Control4 doesn't exist, so the company should be offering 24/7 technical support at the least for its customers (if the system fails and your dealer isn't available 24/7, you have to wait until they have time or decide to get back to you). Ignoring the end user and only communicating with dealers is certainly not a way to make your customers feel good about spending any money on your products.

 

 

 

The two paragraphs above are they key points.  But it's very obvious that C4 doesn't care about anything that doesn't directly impact a dealer's bottom line.  And they have no understanding of opportunity cost or how DIY types could increase the bottom line for them.  To corporate, a C4 customer post installation is simply an annoyance.  To many dealers, customers post initial installation fall to the bottom of the priority list - C4 is all about generating new customers.  The old ones are stuck.  If they abandon C4 - oh well.

 

There have been many threads on this - the whole Compiser HE vs Pro debate.  I'm sure there are many that would gladly pay for access to information C4 restricts to dealers and I know many would gladly license Pro, but that would require C4 to acknowledge that customers are at least important as dealers and there is no indication that I've seen that management believes that. 

 

Sadly, I no longer recommend C4 to my friends and family.  I can't in good conscience.  Most of them are techies like me and would love what the system could do, but be appalled at what they can't do.  

[StroTek LLC]

@nevets23 The control4 door stations do  UNOFFICIALLY support SIP to your phone/tablet using 3rd party software.. they even mentioned it during the 2.9 press release.. so that being said.. who knows how long till it works natively through the control4 app

 

I know thats really high on my wishlist

[christophers]

1 minute ago, StroTek LLC said:

@nevets23 The control4 door stations do  UNOFFICIALLY support SIP to your phone/tablet using 3rd party software.. they even mentioned it during the 2.9 press release.. so that being said.. who knows how long till it works natively through the control4 app

 

I know thats really high on my wishlist

is it yet possible to pull out the video feed, whether h264 or mjpeg, so i can record somewhere? 

[StroTek LLC]

As soon as I get mine, I will play around and see if its possible.. I simply dont know

[Cyknight]

9 minutes ago, Christopher Spitler said:

is it yet possible to pull out the video feed, whether h264 or mjpeg, so i can record somewhere? 

It is - but requires a separate license from 2N - the company that builds the actual hardware.

 

Dop note that this only applies to the DS@ - second gen doorstation.

[christophers]

1 minute ago, Cyknight said:

It is - but requires a separate license from 2N - the company that builds the actual hardware.

 

Dop note that this only applies to the DS@ - second gen doorstation.

do you have link to this info or reference? can't find anything in the KB. 

i ended up getting a doorbird for the external video, works well, and they are saying they should be ONVIF compliant this month 

[Cyknight]

22 hours ago, nevets23 said:

As far as I can tell, os 2.9 offers nothing of significant value, absent the integration of alexa.

Actually I'm far more interested in some of the other features - ZWave and Experience buttons for example, than Alexa. Alexa is NOT the only thing in there.

The whole dealer model debate  is long winded. You can agree with it or not - but it doesn't truly reflect on the capabilities of the system.

No-one's disagreeing I think that door to phone (while not at home) would be a significant boot - geofencing would be a nice addition, but it comes with some caveats depending on your environment, including potential security issues. But in the end, both are valid points. Note that I include 'Control4' when I say no-one's disagreeing. Getting it DONE is another matter of course.

22 hours ago, nevets23 said:

some people on here think that control4 can do no wrong

I don't think anyone here would claim that at all actually.

[rayk32]

Zwave compatibility is an important addition too, but to leave the HC800 and HC250 off the hardware compatibility list was abusive and irresponsible.  The Z-wave module/dongle is a gateway to send and receive the Z-wave protocol and there is no technological reason that the HC800/HC250 and the many end users who have them as the primary controllers in their projects, should've been left out of the upgrade path. Those 2 controllers are powerful enough to handle that process. At the least, the four year old HC800 should've been included.  The fact that there are other 3rd party ways to address this is not a valid excuse either. 

Control4's direct customers (dealers) need to make them accountable and hold their feet to the fire.  For end users to complain and ask for change is kinda like praying to god to fix the world's problems ... deaf ears and no action.  LOL

 

[Cyknight]

4 minutes ago, Christopher Spitler said:

do you have link to this info or reference? can't find anything in the KB. 

i ended up getting a doorbird for the external video, works well, and they are saying they should be ONVIF compliant this month 

It's been discussed on the dealer forums - I've no clue if it has an official guide or kb article. Your best bet is to contact 2N themselves. If memory serves, I've seen a few people mention that they were a great help in setting it up.

[fprefect]

My venting, since this seems to be the direction of this thread...   

There were several times over the years when my lights wouldn't turn on... or off, and i thought that the thousands of $$ investments in hardware was going to go in the dumpster, then it got fixed and for the last several years the system has been stable with a high WAF.... of course, i also selected a new pool controller based on a couple of press releases by c4 and hayward, and that promised integration still hasn't happened, so, there's a few thousand bills that were spent thinking that c4 would actually deliver on their press releases.  Lesson learned.   Overall, i like the seamlessness of the experience when it works well.  Would love to get my rhapsody back, but I have to schedule out my dealer to get the upgrade done.  What's a few months of broken functionality for the other 88% of the system that still works.

 

btw, any release notes for 2.9 yet??  Hardware that won't work anymore or aren't supported by the new features??

[am350z]

On 9/18/2016 at 11:14 AM, jfh said:

 

 

Sadly, I no longer recommend C4 to my friends and family.  I can't in good conscience.  Most of them are techies like me and would love what the system could do, but be appalled at what they can't do.  

Thats too bad because it really is an amazing system, and while not perfect, I enjoy it much greater than the competition.  Switched from Crestron and the amount of user control is night and day.  DIY is growing but in my personal experience the high end installations are mostly set it and forget it.  9/10 dont want to fiddle with it, even in the young tech sophisticated crowd who may be able to but dont have time or desire.

[jfh]

3 hours ago, am350z said:

Thats too bad because it really is an amazing system, and while not perfect, I enjoy it much greater than the competition.  Switched from Crestron and the amount of user control is night and day.  DIY is growing but in my personal experience the high end installations are mostly set it and forget it.  9/10 dont want to fiddle with it, even in the young tech sophisticated crowd who may be able to but dont have time or desire.

I agree that the vast majority don't want to fiddle with it.  But those that do tend to be vocal advocates, typically the type of folks you want promoting your product (for free).  I'm a techie, so most of those I showed off my C4 system to were techies.  Maybe it would be different if I was a doctor.

C4 is so terrified their business model is going to collapse if every user isn't tethered to a dealer for even the most trivial of things.  They don't even care enough about their customers to market to them !!    Every other company I have ever done business with markets to me, lets me know about new products, etc..  If not for this forum, I'd never know about new releases/function/C4 gear.   Maybe corporate expects dealers to do all that.  Maybe some do, but mine doesn't.   After my initial install, I have been totally invisible to C4, as far as I can tell.