Discussion of new CA-10 controller

[RyanE]

On 9/13/2019 at 12:05 PM, South Africa C4 user said:

Apparently it will take 2 weeks to get a CA10 to me... I must say, I am keen to play... but wow what a price tag 

It had better last me 10 years plus!

It does have a 5 year warranty, which should get you well past the 'first failure' on the bathtub curve.

RyanE

[Gary Leeds UK]

On 9/15/2019 at 12:03 PM, South Africa C4 user said:

A bit weird. Not dissimilar to my alarm issues (but not fully the same).  I have a DSC, so if the issues are related, they are not a driver issue.  My problems started when my whole system started to struggle. I am hoping the CA10 will fix everything but am a bit worried that I will install it and all other issues will be fixed but the alarm problems will remain. Certainly hope not!

Lots of red herrings - me thinks!

OK - Alarm Company have been round and they are happy the Panel is not doing anything it should not be - They have some software called Wintex and was able to

download the Alarm activity and its normal - Set at 10pm unset at 6am. 

Just Control4 Show up issues at the same time every night 12.14 am give or take a minute - States disarm and then Arm - Sometimes shows Doors have been active. 

Also the Mockupancy Driver (Link with Security Panel) was not fixed my dealer did some programming to stop me moaning about it - Which we have now deleted. 

Very confusing.

Also with T3 touchscreen we only have the issue on one T3 screen  (Have 4 in total) we are looking at swapping it to see if one of the other screens 

can replicate the same issue in that room.  

 

 

[South Africa C4 user]

1 hour ago, Gary Leeds UK said:

OK - Alarm Company have been round and they are happy the Panel is not doing anything it should not be - They have some software called Wintex and was able to

download the Alarm activity and its normal - Set at 10pm unset at 6am. 

Just Control4 Show up issues at the same time every night 12.14 am give or take a minute - States disarm and then Arm - Sometimes shows Doors have been active. 

Also the Mockupancy Driver (Link with Security Panel) was not fixed my dealer did some programming to stop me moaning about it - Which we have now deleted. 

Very confusing.

Also with T3 touchscreen we only have the issue on one T3 screen  (Have 4 in total) we are looking at swapping it to see if one of the other screens 

can replicate the same issue in that room.  

 

 

Have a look in the History Agent and see what it says there.  Turn off info and only look at the other 2 event types.  I have found the following (again, my case is slightly different to yours):

- mine shows up at seemingly random times.

- mine shows up in the History Agent (in Composer) as Security/unused/3150/Arm failed or something like that.

- today, I realized that the 3150 (which is sometimes 3148 or 3149) is the device ID of partition 4 (or 2 or 3) in my security driver (even though I actually only have 1 active partition).  For some reason, the 7 unused partitions are (occasionally doing their own thing).

- if I look on my T3 (any of them) these all appear as “arm failed” in history.

- if I look on the C4 app on my iPad, these don’t appear... clearly the iPad is more clever and only looks at messages pertaining to a genuine partition.  For genuine partition history items, the “Unused” in the History Agent (within Composer) changes to “1 Skynet Place” where “1 Skynet Place” is my address (not really) and the name of my Partition in the Driver.

Very weird!

[SMHarman]

Here is what baffles me - you probably still need an EA3 or 5 for the I/O's, streaming audio, etc.  I know you can get the I/O's elsewhere but not the audio.  So isnt that your redundancy?  Couldn't they have made an CA-10 or whatever just faster/snappier without the redundnacy and oh if it fails you roll the project over to the EA5 temporarily?  I guess with the CA-10 it rolls over so nothing a dealer needs to do if something goes out so its better for up time, but it really comes at a major price that I cannot see except for a very few small situations.

i agree. I actually called the CA10 a science project - that is how I view it....Engineering for engineers

Indeed. You also need redundant network switching at that point. My switch lost power with a flakey WB700 and that took out everything, lighting, blinds, everything on IP.

Sent from my E6603 using Tapatalk

[drmark12pa]

What inputs/outputs does the CA10 have?  I can't find a picture yet of the back as I'm considering replacing my oldest controller (HC800) with this.  I'm currently using an EA5 as main and 2 EA3s also in system.  My security system and at least 1 relay are connected to the 800 as of now.

[Cyknight]

35 minutes ago, SMHarman said:

On 9/12/2019 at 10:39 AM, eggzlot said:

Here is what baffles me - you probably still need an EA3 or 5 for the I/O's, streaming audio, etc.  I know you can get the I/O's elsewhere but not the audio.  So isnt that your redundancy?  Couldn't they have made an CA-10 or whatever just faster/snappier without the redundnacy and oh if it fails you roll the project over to the EA5 temporarily?  I guess with the CA-10 it rolls over so nothing a dealer needs to do if something goes out so its better for up time, but it really comes at a major price that I cannot see except for a very few small situations.

On 9/12/2019 at 12:03 PM, msgreenf said:

i agree. I actually called the CA10 a science project - that is how I view it....Engineering for engineers

Indeed. You also need redundant network switching at that point. My switch lost power with a flakey WB700 and that took out everything, lighting, blinds, everything on IP.

It's a limited scope by default:

1) Either a huge system that requires the power (think MDU as well)

2) Something heavily reliant on IP controller gear for major functions (lighting for example) that you don't want to take down. System down and no TV is one thing. System down and no lighting is a whole different ball game.

3) Systems that are actually low-fequency use that can use added 'monitotring' - say a vacation home that you want to get an alert from BEFORE you head out there for a week's vacation.

 

Now, the reality is that the chances of your system just dying are minimal to begin with, so it's debatable how much sense redundancy makes to begin with, in any form.

As for redundant networking, the idea would of course be that you're connecting the CA10 to your main network, with a second line direct to the router (indicating that the main network is down)

OR one line goes to an EA5 or EA3 built in switch (and if it's down it's an indicator that is down)

OR (and I'd have to test this to be sure that would work) you have the second network (ie ISP combo modem/router) that would allow you to easily setup a direct warning that things are wrong because there's still an internet connection to email out from.

When it comes to power, you would for sure put an CA-10 on a dedicated smaller UPS for sure, maybe combine it with jsut the main router and modem so that you can use the setup as a warning for power down situations as well.

 

Engineering for engineers is too much said however.

There has been a LOT of requests for redundancy options among dealers, and keep in mind that while residential is probably the biggest sector C4 is used in in number of systems, commercial and MDU setups are still an at least considerable part of the 'C4 world' (and perhaps bigger than most of us here realize (myself included) - i certainly don't KNOW the overall relative dollar % between residential and everything else just based on our own clientele)  - and you're not going to 'meet' those 'people' on these forums as there just isn't much to learn here for that sector.

[Cyknight]

Just now, drmark12pa said:

What inputs/outputs does the CA10 have?  I can't find a picture yet of the back as I'm considering replacing my oldest controller (HC800) with this.  I'm currently using an EA5 as main and 2 EA3s also in system.  My security system and at least 1 relay are connected to the 800 as of now.

There are NO i/o connections on the CA-10 - think HC1000.

It's 'just' a brain.

[EverAction]

1 hour ago, SMHarman said:

Indeed. You also need redundant network switching at that point. My switch lost power with a flakey WB700 and that took out everything, lighting, blinds, everything on IP.

Sent from my E6603 using Tapatalk
 

A WattBox that's gone flaky? That NEVER happens! 

[SMHarman]

 

 

 

It's a limited scope by default:

 

2) Something heavily reliant on IP controller gear for major functions (lighting for example) that you don't want to take down. System down and no TV is one thing. System down and no lighting is a whole different ball game.

 

 

My entire problem last week a disaster of funny colored dmx lights and no control of panel lights. But it was the switch that was with no power causing the problem, not an out of commission controller.

 

Sent from my E6603 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

[Cyknight]

44 minutes ago, SMHarman said:

 

My entire problem last week a disaster of funny colored dmx lights and no control of panel lights. But it was the switch that was with no power causing the problem, not an out of commission controller.

 

Sent from my E6603 using Tapatalk

An issue that the CA-10 could have reported the moment the switch lost power if it had it's first first netwrok port connected to the switch and it's  second network connected direct tot the router

[Cyknight]

56 minutes ago, EverAction said:

A WattBox that's gone flaky? That NEVER happens! 

lol

[RyanE]

On 9/16/2019 at 1:48 PM, EverAction said:

A WattBox that's gone flaky? That NEVER happens! 

Watt happened?

RyanE

[drmark12pa]

It seems C4 has a way of making their best product without functionality.  I can't see any reason they could not include inputs/outputs on such an expensive unit.  Instead, one HAS to have another controller for that.  I cannot understand why both the brains and the brawn so to speak cannot be combined in one unit..... 

[jackstone]

I really not see the point of the CA-10... Dual power supply??? But only one power input??? What? after 25 years working with enterprise servers, there is no feature more needed than two power supplies connected to two different UPS, preventing downtime when one UPS dies...

[LollerAgent]

56 minutes ago, jackstone said:

I really not see the point of the CA-10... Dual power supply??? But only one power input??? What? after 25 years working with enterprise servers, there is no feature more needed than two power supplies connected to two different UPS, preventing downtime when one UPS dies...

Huh?  So it has two internal PSU's with only a single input?  That doesn't make any sense.

[SMHarman]

Huh?  So it has two internal PSU's with only a single input?  That doesn't make any sense.

Well it does when historically C4 has had power supply failure problems.

Sent from my E6603 using Tapatalk

[EverAction]

2 hours ago, drmark12pa said:

It seems C4 has a way of making their best product without functionality.  I can't see any reason they could not include inputs/outputs on such an expensive unit.  Instead, one HAS to have another controller for that.  I cannot understand why both the brains and the brawn so to speak cannot be combined in one unit..... 

My guess is the main point of this unit is to handle a larger processor load and provide redundancy. Redundancy being the bigger factor in regards to I/O. There's no way to make the I/O redundant, so that's most likely why it was left off the CA-10. Besides, the projects that are large enough to *require* a CA-10 most likely have plenty of I/O spread out across all devices besides the primary director. Finally, to keep costs down.

These conversations are like deja vu when the HC-1000 was announced. When everyone realized the performance boost the HC-1000 provided, the lack of I/O was completely forgiven and forgotten. Those complaining about no I/O on a CA-10 just don't get the product's purpose.

 

[bogleheads]

Is this the return of HC-1000( with power/redundancy) which runs mainly as director ? and EA runs Zigbee?

[SMHarman]

There are NO i/o connections on the CA-10 - think HC1000.
It's 'just' a brain.

Is this the return of HC-1000( with power/redundancy) which runs mainly as director ? and EA runs Zigbee?

Kinda

Sent from my E6603 using Tapatalk

[jackstone]

Would be nice to see an IO Extender v3 to be released with audio outputs, to put along side the CA-10.

[Cyknight]

I'd prefer something like a 4 stereo, 2 digital audio only device myself at this point. a 'dumb' audio streamer if you will

[SMHarman]

I'd prefer something like a 4 stereo, 2 digital audio only device myself at this point. a 'dumb' audio streamer if you will

Add a CPU and wouldn't you have an EA5

Sent from my E6603 using Tapatalk

[Cyknight]

51 minutes ago, SMHarman said:

Add a CPU and wouldn't you have an EA5

Sent from my E6603 using Tapatalk
 

No you'd have an EA5 plus 2 audio outputs

 

But what I mean is truly a dumb audio streamer. With the cA-10 and the CA-1's there's a lot more need for a device that 'just' adds audio outputs. No IR, no serial - jsut audio

 

Sometimes an EA-5 alone isn't enough streams, and with a CA-10 overtop of it, there's zero reason to add an EA5 and an EA3 may not make sense either.

[jackstone]

10 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

No you'd have an EA5 plus 2 audio outputs

 

But what I mean is truly a dumb audio streamer. With the cA-10 and the CA-1's there's a lot more need for a device that 'just' adds audio outputs. No IR, no serial - jsut audio

 

Sometimes an EA-5 alone isn't enough streams, and with a CA-10 overtop of it, there's zero reason to add an EA5 and an EA3 may not make sense either.

100% agree..

 

[jackstone]

Just like Savant does with their ip audio stuff... add an amp, get more streams...