What do you do when a Smart Home Devices' cloud servers shut down?

[zaphod]

Interesting story from The Verge.  Kind of gives a plug to Matter in the end...

https://www.theverge.com/23032451/smart-home-troubles-insteon-ihome-shutdown-matter

[RAV]

Don't rent your IOT.

This isn't going to end. If you're relying on the cloud for any type of processor, you don't own your IOT, you're renting it.
You are at the mercy of the cloud, whoever they are.
If they want to raise rates, change terms, remove features, stalk you, sell you, deny you, there's nothing you can do about it.

Own your smart home.
(This isn't specifically a Control4 plug, there are many systems that are in the own it category.)

[wnpublic]

1 minute ago, RAV said:

Don't rent your IOT.

This isn't going to end. If you're relying on the cloud for any type of processor, you don't own your IOT, you're renting it.
You are at the mercy of the cloud, whoever they are.
If they want to raise rates, change terms, remove features, stalk you, sell you, deny you, there's nothing you can do about it.

Own your smart home.
(This isn't specifically a Control4 plug, there are many systems that are in the own it category.)

Or - buy things with an open api for local control. Insteon owners got saved even though the company is kaput because Insteon permitted local control. Both Hubitat and Home Assistant can drive them. I doubt it would happen, but do you really think you are protected if SNPO goes under?  It’s a closed, proprietary system. 

[msgreenf]

5 minutes ago, wnpublic said:

Or - buy things with an open api for local control. Insteon owners got saved even though the company is kaput because Insteon permitted local control. Both Hubitat and Home Assistant can drive them. I doubt it would happen, but do you really think you are protected if SNPO goes under?  It’s a closed, proprietary system. 

I thought with insteon that is only the case if you had everything setup and registered. If your hub goes offline you can't reregister it or add new devices. 

[RAV]

2 minutes ago, wnpublic said:

Or - buy things with an open api for local control. Insteon owners got saved even though the company is kaput because Insteon permitted local control. Both Hubitat and Home Assistant can drive them. I doubt it would happen, but do you really think you are protected if SNPO goes under?  It’s a closed, proprietary system. 

I'm not fully vexed in the opensource platforms, but my understanding is the device manufacturers app still has to do the initial setup, then the open source platform can take over.

Can Insteon owners purchase existing inventory and add to their system right now?

[msgreenf]

14 minutes ago, RAV said:

Can Insteon owners purchase existing inventory and add to their system right now?

from what I have read, no

[RAV]

24 minutes ago, wnpublic said:

I doubt it would happen, but do you really think you are protected if SNPO goes under?  It’s a closed, proprietary system. 

There are no guarantees.
But, it doesn't rely on the cloud other than remote access, and that's universally true.
Setup properly, it functions without a live Internet, even the app locally.
Systems over 10 years are still functioning for their intended purpose without intervention.
There's enough knowledge out there that the systems could be 'released' shall we say.

Nothings perfect, but I do feel comfortable with the platform and it's future.

[wnpublic]

32 minutes ago, RAV said:

I'm not fully vexed in the opensource platforms, but my understanding is the device manufacturers app still has to do the initial setup, then the open source platform can take over.

Can Insteon owners purchase existing inventory and add to their system right now?

I believe the answer is:  if you have a functioning hub, you don't need Insteon to add new Insteon devices. 

https://www.home-assistant.io/blog/2022/04/19/for-insteon-users/

It also looks like you can get the hub working without the cloud and go from there.

https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/insteon/ (see part about "Recovering After Factory Resetting The Hub")

Not ideal, but doable.  And it's because there's a local API that's known and usable.

[DanITman]

1 hour ago, msgreenf said:

from what I have read, no

You don't need any central control for insteon to work.  This is what is great about the platform.  The logic and connections live in the switch themselves.  They work even when the main hub goes down. This includes Keypads (unlike c4).

The hub does make it easier to connect switches.  The hub also provides the ability to do programming around time. Like scheduling agent in control4.  

The hub has a local API that can be controlled by other systems such as Control4, Homeseer, and HA.

[DanITman]

2 hours ago, RAV said:

Don't rent your IOT.

This isn't going to end. If you're relying on the cloud for any type of processor, you don't own your IOT, you're renting it.
You are at the mercy of the cloud, whoever they are.
If they want to raise rates, change terms, remove features, stalk you, sell you, deny you, there's nothing you can do about it.

Own your smart home.
(This isn't specifically a Control4 plug, there are many systems that are in the own it category.)

Control4 requires the cloud.  If Control4 shut down your mobile app would stop working.  Even local control requires the cloud for authentication. 

[South Africa C4 user]

24 minutes ago, DanITman said:

Control4 requires the cloud.  If Control4 shut down your mobile app would stop working.  Even local control requires the cloud for authentication. 

I had no internet for 4 or 5 days last week and the system worked fine (other than 1 or 2 cloud based driver and one other driver which acted like a cloud based driver after a while) except that opening the app (locally obviously) took longer than normal. I’m not sure why.  My dealer did say that if one has no internet, one should change how the clock syncs as this can slow things down when there is no internet… not sure how valid that is.

Edited April 20, 2022 by South Africa C4 user

[DanITman]

4 minutes ago, South Africa C4 user said:

I had no internet for 4 or 5 days last week and the system worked fine (other than 1 or 2 cloud based driver and one other driver which acted like a cloud based driver after a while) except that opening the app (locally obviously) took longer than normal. I’m not sure why.  My dealer did say that if one has no internet, one should change how the clock syncs as this can slow things down when there is no internet… not sure how valid that is.

The mobile app requires Control4 servers to generate a JWT token to authenticate on your local system.  If those servers go down you can't generate a new JWT from your mobile phone.  I believe the expiration on that JWT is 24hrs. Did you phone have internet? 

I'd love for an official c4 response but I'm pretty sure all authentication now goes through Control4 cloud platform. 

[South Africa C4 user]

32 minutes ago, DanITman said:

The mobile app requires Control4 servers to generate a JWT token to authenticate on your local system.  If those servers go down you can't generate a new JWT from your mobile phone.  I believe the expiration on that JWT is 24hrs. Did you phone have internet? 

I'd love for an official c4 response but I'm pretty sure all authentication now goes through Control4 cloud platform. 

My iPad is WiFi only so it definitely did not have internet for at least 2 of the 5 days (ie the non work days).  The app continued to work (bar the slower than usual start up - 5 to 10 seconds cf 1 second.

[RAV]

34 minutes ago, DanITman said:

The mobile app requires Control4 servers to generate a JWT token to authenticate on your local system.  If those servers go down you can't generate a new JWT from your mobile phone.  I believe the expiration on that JWT is 24hrs. Did you phone have internet? 

I'd love for an official c4 response but I'm pretty sure all authentication now goes through Control4 cloud platform. 

Once authenticated, the cloud is no longer required. Until you add or get a new device.

[DanITman]

20 minutes ago, RAV said:

Once authenticated, the cloud is no longer required. Until you add or get a new device.

I'll test it out and see what happens.  I remember there being a recent c4 outage that caused some users on wifi to not work.  I'll report back my findings. 

[DanITman]

Reporting back that I was able to connected even though one of my apps hadn't been connected to the internet.  I blocked internet for that device and only allowed local access and it connected right away.  However, if Control4 were ever to shut down cloud services you still wouldn't be able to add new devices to the system.  As @RAV stated it requires access to the cloud services at first to verify and then has access to the system. 

[Cyknight]

2 hours ago, DanITman said:

Reporting back that I was able to connected even though one of my apps hadn't been connected to the internet.  I blocked internet for that device and only allowed local access and it connected right away.  However, if Control4 were ever to shut down cloud services you still wouldn't be able to add new devices to the system.  As @RAV stated it requires access to the cloud services at first to verify and then has access to the system. 

The app requires occasional re-authentication (don't know the exact time frame) - so yes no internet for an EXTENDED time would stop the app from working. The online servers having issues thus affected those people who's 'timer' was up in that timeframe.

But the phone app not working still does not equal the SYSTEM not working. Unlike a true cloud based control system, where the actual 'brain' is on-line.

I'm in the same corner in that regard - I would not trust a (full) system that requires the cloud 24/7 to operate everything in my house.

[Dueport]

Well, in the vein of smart home clouds shutting down: Apparently LIFX's parent company's going into receivership - LIFX could make it out or go under according to this article and as reported on the IoT Podcast. Hopefully someone will buy them and keep it going, otherwise, I wonder if the LIFX driver I have could be modified (or a brand new driver purchased) that could allow direct control like the Home Assistant integration allows.  Any word on that possibility @alanchow or @Andrew luecke?  I have a bunch of their nightvision bulbs around the exterior of our house because they're the only bulbs I could find that look normal but provide a lot more IR for the security cameras at night.....

[RAV]

16 minutes ago, Dueport said:

Well, in the vein of smart home clouds shutting down: Apparently LIFX's parent company's going into receivership - LIFX could make it out or go under according to this article and as reported on the IoT Podcast. Hopefully someone will buy them and keep it going, otherwise, I wonder if the LIFX driver I have could be modified (or a brand new driver purchased) that could allow direct control like the Home Assistant integration allows.  Any word on that possibility @alanchow or @Andrew luecke?  I have a bunch of their nightvision bulbs around the exterior of our house because they're the only bulbs I could find that look normal but provide a lot more IR for the security cameras at night.....

Axon's driver states no cloud required for LIFX. So, worse case, there's an option if that's not your current driver.

Open request to all driver developers to please be as plain as possible when a driver is or isnt' reliant on the cloud. (without digging in pdfs preferably). Thanks.

[zaphod]

14 hours ago, Cyknight said:

But the phone app not working still does not equal the SYSTEM not working. Unlike a true cloud based control system, where the actual 'brain' is on-line.

This is totally true, but if you are using a phone or iPad as your primary interface mechanism in some rooms then the difference is just semantics to the end user.

[Cyknight]

12 minutes ago, zaphod said:

This is totally true, but if you are using a phone or iPad as your primary interface mechanism in some rooms then the difference is just semantics to the end user.

Which is part of why I advise strategically placed touchscreens and.... keypads and remotes. Not so much in any anticipation of C4 going down, but more in general of the server going down, or even prolonged internet loss due to whatever cause. Or heaven forbid an iOS (or Android) update that breaks the app for however long.

You're right of course - but going that route is merely one option for the system overall, and not one that I think should be the recommended course (using only phones and tablets).

[zaphod]

I have lots of keypads in and around my house, but no touchscreens.  The thing that I need the app most crucially for would be adding rooms to audio sessions, and changing the time for the wakeup agent.  In most other instances I use keypads to interface with C4, for music I use the Spotify app on phone, iPad or PC to initiate playback.

[Cyknight]

7 hours ago, zaphod said:

The thing that I need the app most crucially for would be adding rooms to audio sessions, and changing the time for the wakeup agent.

Absolutely - that is where a graphical interface shines (well and selecting movies from a server if you have that) I certainly wouldn't argue you do those things with a remote, unless, possibly, you would use the OSD (though I actually have no clue if wakeup is available on there), but having to turn on a TV to do audio is counter-intuitive. But all that can be done with a native screen as well. That's my point.

Understand, I'm not arguing you MUST have them - it's everyone's own choice. I'm just pointing out that if you have 1-2 of them (or perhaps more depending on the size and layout of the location) that are strategically placed for maximum use (and thus 'value') prevent any 'shut-out' from those function if, again for whatever possible reason, the servers cannot be reached.

 

[DanITman]

18 hours ago, zaphod said:

This is totally true, but if you are using a phone or iPad as your primary interface mechanism in some rooms then the difference is just semantics to the end user.

This is true for Insteon.  The app isn't required.  Keypads can be configured and connections can be made without a hub. 

If C4 did go out of business we would also lose Composer Pro/HE and the ability to make changes. Composer Pro stops working unless a dealer re-authenticates within 40 days.

[Cyknight]

14 hours ago, DanITman said:

This is true for Insteon.  The app isn't required.  Keypads can be configured and connections can be made without a hub. 

If C4 did go out of business we would also lose Composer Pro/HE and the ability to make changes. Composer Pro stops working unless a dealer re-authenticates within 40 days.

No but cloud is required for schedules etc - which wouldn't be the case with C4 (or Savant, Elan etc.)

As for Pro - true, but if it gets killed, I've no doubt the ability to authorize elsewhere, or bypass it altogether, won't be far behind.