Binary MoIP Vs AV Pro Edge MXNET-1G & Triad

[ClassicMuscle]

Need some quick opinions here guys, I have (2) C4 integrators telling me different things.  House has 21 audio zones, and 7 TV zones.  Company A wants to install AV Pro Edge MXNET-1G's for video distribution and then have the audio done by stacking a 16 zone Triad Matrix on an 8 zone Triad Matrix to cover the 21 audio zones.  Company B is saying this not good, and that audio Matrix's can mess up when stacked?  They are saying they would have used (28) Binary MoIP's to cover both the audio and video zones, and then simply had Binary MoIP power the amplifiers vs mixing AV Pro with Triad products.  

Who is right here?  Company B is also claiming this is a smarter move because Binary MoIP will allow IP control of TV's easier and it's a more reliable Snap AV product?   

[pkkaiser]

AVPro Edge is way superior to Binary MOIP (which IS snap AV). As for stacking amps, it is true that is not good practice. AVPro and Binary have IP over audio too so no real need for the triad matrix since they suck anyhow. There are way better audio matrix 

[Control4Savant]

26 minutes ago, pkkaiser said:

AVPro Edge is way superior to Binary MOIP (which IS snap AV). As for stacking amps, it is true that is not good practice. AVPro and Binary have IP over audio too so no real need for the triad matrix since they suck anyhow. There are way better audio matrix 

Stacking analog matrix is not good practice… stacking amps is fine. I think thats what you meant but I wanted to clarify. 

56 minutes ago, ClassicMuscle said:

Need some quick opinions here guys, I have (2) C4 integrators telling me different things.  House has 21 audio zones, and 7 TV zones.  Company A wants to install AV Pro Edge MXNET-1G's for video distribution and then have the audio done by stacking a 16 zone Triad Matrix on an 8 zone Triad Matrix to cover the 21 audio zones.  Company B is saying this not good, and that audio Matrix's can mess up when stacked?  They are saying they would have used (28) Binary MoIP's to cover both the audio and video zones, and then simply had Binary MoIP power the amplifiers vs mixing AV Pro with Triad products.  

Who is right here?  Company B is also claiming this is a smarter move because Binary MoIP will allow IP control of TV's easier and it's a more reliable Snap AV product?   

IP distributed solutions are definitely the best but usually can come as larger costs. What type of video sources are you using?

[ClassicMuscle]

25 minutes ago, Control4Savant said:

Stacking analog matrix is not good practice… stacking amps is fine. I think thats what you meant but I wanted to clarify. 

IP distributed solutions are definitely the best but usually can come as larger costs. What type of video sources are you using?

We are pretty simple there.  We just have His/Her Apple TV, and His/Her Xfinity cable boxes.  And then another Apple TV for the theater room.  

[ClassicMuscle]

55 minutes ago, pkkaiser said:

AVPro Edge is way superior to Binary MOIP (which IS snap AV). As for stacking amps, it is true that is not good practice. AVPro and Binary have IP over audio too so no real need for the triad matrix since they suck anyhow. There are way better audio matrix 

 

This is not good to hear.  I had heard the Triad Amps fail, but had not heard their Matrix isn't good or they shouldn't be stacked.  And my wife and I use the audio in the home alot, we literally have it playing all the time, for background music.  We're not really worried about audio quality, just that it plays and doesn't cut in/out and plays continuously.  

Can I ask what some better brands for the Audio Matrix would have been than Triad?  Considering I needed to cover 21 zones? 

[SpencerT]

Pulse eight (used to be zektor) has analog matrices that will cover up to 64 zones. 

[chopedogg88]

I use the Triad matrix in all of my systems and they work great. I wouldn't take one guys comment that they suck as gospel. 

[LollerAgent]

1 hour ago, pkkaiser said:

AVPro Edge is way superior to Binary MOIP (which IS snap AV). As for stacking amps, it is true that is not good practice. AVPro and Binary have IP over audio too so no real need for the triad matrix since they suck anyhow. There are way better audio matrix 

Why do you think the Triad matrix sucks?

[pkkaiser]

Have had mine replaced 3 times. Keep breaking. So success at breaking = sucks

[chopedogg88]

That's odd. I've installed probably close to 100 of them and have not had to rma a single one.

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[cnicholson]

1 hour ago, SpencerT said:

Pulse eight (used to be zektor) has analog matrices that will cover up to 64 zones. 

I have the Pulse eight ProAudio32 (which has 32 analog outs to feed Amp and A LOT of extra digital in/outs).   We actually stack it with a Triad 16, but only use digital connections to the Triad.  Because PulseEight has so many extra digital connections, I don't see any downside from stacking.

For video distribution, many of the fancy distribution baluns cost more than an Apple TV, which is our primary (near exclusive) video source-- which to me seemed silly.   So I just put an Apple TV behind every TV.   For the rare (for me) use cases when I want the same video source on multiple screens (usually live sports), I just got a cheap IP encoder/streamer in front of a "shared" AppleTV and put a decoder box behind each TV--- About $50/decoder IIRC.  I didn't even go for the 4K version because very few live events are even in 4K, and I can upgrade later very easily.   C4 doesn't even "know" about this "shared Apple TV" IP distribution set up.  As far as it is concerned, I just have very long HDMI cables.  In summary: max quality is *always* from direct/local physical HDMI connection, so why not do that (with audio backhaul).  And I sacrifice quality for my rare "multi screen, same source" situations.  

 

[ClassicMuscle]

1 hour ago, chopedogg88 said:

That's odd. I've installed probably close to 100 of them and have not had to rma a single one.

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But what is your opinion on stacking the Triad 18 and 8 zone amp to cover the 21 audio zones vs simply getting one larger audio matrix?  Do you agree that stacking them is generally not a great idea?    

[msgreenf]

1 hour ago, chopedogg88 said:

That's odd. I've installed probably close to 100 of them and have not had to rma a single one.

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Agree Ive never replaced one in the field 

[chopedogg88]

You don't want to output from one matrix into another.  However if you're really just talking about music, you can run audio from say a CORE 5 controller, which has 3 analog outs and 3 digital outs, and run 3 to each matrix (or 4 to the AMS16 and 2 to the AMS8 is probably how I would do it actually), and you'd be fine, and would have the ability to have all zones play in sync if you wanted to still.

[cnicholson]

45 minutes ago, chopedogg88 said:

4 to the AMS16 and 2 to the AMS8 is probably how I would do it actually

But then if he wants a Core5 source to play in one zone off Matrix 1 and another zone off Matrix 2, he'd use up two of his six Core5 streams, right?    I would have thought you would Y-out the sources and connect to both Matrixes (subject to leaving room for his TV audio sources).   In real world, I'm never been limited by number of concurrent Core5 streams, but burning two at a time could be an issue if he has 21 zones.  Not questioning your wisdom (I'm just an end user).  Just curious.

 

[chopedogg88]

Correct

[chopedogg88]

But if he's listening to the same thing in all zones then why does he need the other 4 streams? 

[lippavisual]

2 hours ago, ClassicMuscle said:

But what is your opinion on stacking the Triad 18 and 8 zone amp to cover the 21 audio zones vs simply getting one larger audio matrix?  Do you agree that stacking them is generally not a great idea?    

Do you really have 21 discrete audio zones??  Or will some zones always be grouped together?

I wouldn’t stack the matrices personally, and would get 1 switch sized for the job.

[BXTR]

MXNet is far superior to moip, and if warranty is a concern the AVPro is also far superior 

As others have said, stacking audio matrix’s the correct way will work just fine, Triad is a great option, zero failures here on those… Triad amps, well that’s another story

[Time2Jet]

MoIP is great, but MXNet is an upgrade. Not by leaps and bounds. The original MXNet 1g product line was very similar to MoIP 900 series. (4K HDR @444 was limited to 30hz - most of us wouldn’t care to be honest), but has a better interface for the installer.

A good solution here could be the modular AxionX platform by AVPro. It allows for video matrixing (via HDMI and HDBT Sources and HDBT or HDMI outputs) as well as audio independent matrixing. (There are also some crazy modular upgrades that does mission critical video scaling “think medical applications”.) The max on a single unit is 16x16 (independent audio streams count as inputs against the 16 Ins). But the units can be looped out and stacked (AVPro will customize a stack solution to get you to 21 zones). Regardless of any of these solutions, you will still need amplification. I don’t mind Triad one bit. I haven’t experienced the same issues others mention. Triad has been solid amplification for our clients. AVPro just bought AudioControl which is another gold standard company (in terms of product quality). They mfr audio products such as AVRs, amplification and distributed audio. This allows you to have your entire AV distribution project heavily supported and warranted.

Give them a call, they are really nice people with crazy expertise in AV distribution. If ever needed, support will be second to none.

Feel free to DM me and I can give you some names to speak to at AVPro. They can elaborate and recommend a solution to you (or your dealer) that will work very well and provide you with a minimum of 10 years of peace of mind. They’ll likely be able to send you a recommended solution that you can hand over to your dealer. These are pro and enterprise grade devices that are not sold direct to consumer.

As far as pricing, be prepared to pay a premium, but considering that you will enjoy this equipment for at least a decade supported, do you really pay a premium? I still have plenty of AVPro Connect (prior company name) devices working flawlessly in the field for over 12 years. Jeff and Matt are hands on owners and attract and hire the best engineers in the industry. Although we all know AVPro for Residential and Commercial AV, their products underly mission critical applications in medical and transportation etc., (in areas where there has to be near zero tolerance for failure).


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[ClassicMuscle]

From an audio perspective only, what is better for distribution for 21 zones?  Doing a Triad 16 and Triad 8 (stacked properly) or doing Binary Moip audio senders for each audio zone?  Not worried so much about the audio quality, just looking for which will be most dependable, work the smoothest in the C4 app, and play continuously without crashing.  My wife and I like to keep either Pandora or Sirius XM playing softly in the various zones (probably 5-6 zones) nearly 24 hours a day.  It's like "mall music" in the house to us and when the music is off, we feel like something is missing, lol. 

[chopedogg88]

Triad

[GregCAMS]

On 8/20/2023 at 5:44 AM, time2jet said:

MoIP is great, but MXNet is an upgrade. Not by leaps and bounds. The original MXNet 1g product line was very similar to MoIP 900 series. (4K HDR @444 was limited to 30hz - most of us wouldn’t care to be honest), but has a better interface for the installer.

A good solution here could be the modular AxionX platform by AVPro. It allows for video matrixing (via HDMI and HDBT Sources and HDBT or HDMI outputs) as well as audio independent matrixing. (There are also some crazy modular upgrades that does mission critical video scaling “think medical applications”.) The max on a single unit is 16x16 (independent audio streams count as inputs against the 16 Ins). But the units can be looped out and stacked (AVPro will customize a stack solution to get you to 21 zones). Regardless of any of these solutions, you will still need amplification. I don’t mind Triad one bit. I haven’t experienced the same issues others mention. Triad has been solid amplification for our clients. AVPro just bought AudioControl which is another gold standard company (in terms of product quality). They mfr audio products such as AVRs, amplification and distributed audio. This allows you to have your entire AV distribution project heavily supported and warranted.

Give them a call, they are really nice people with crazy expertise in AV distribution. If ever needed, support will be second to none.

Feel free to DM me and I can give you some names to speak to at AVPro. They can elaborate and recommend a solution to you (or your dealer) that will work very well and provide you with a minimum of 10 years of peace of mind. They’ll likely be able to send you a recommended solution that you can hand over to your dealer. These are pro and enterprise grade devices that are not sold direct to consumer.

As far as pricing, be prepared to pay a premium, but considering that you will enjoy this equipment for at least a decade supported, do you really pay a premium? I still have plenty of AVPro Connect (prior company name) devices working flawlessly in the field for over 12 years. Jeff and Matt are hands on owners and attract and hire the best engineers in the industry. Although we all know AVPro for Residential and Commercial AV, their products underly mission critical applications in medical and transportation etc., (in areas where there has to be near zero tolerance for failure).


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agree on the AVPro.  Did Axion 8x8 for whole home on the Video side and the MXNet 10G for the theater for optimal performance and the multiview functions.  Plus the biggest selling factor was the customer service and the 10 year warranty.  Had a Leaf unit for video that died after 4 years and a Triad for audio distribution that lasted just past 5 before replacing with another one.  In future may go with AVPro's newer 24x24 matrix as we're looking to expand to some zones with some upcoming remodeling.  But I'm a bit biased based upon the warranty, customer service and that I own a few Audio Control receivers and amps they were just acquired by AVPro.

Edited August 28, 2023 by gregheard
spelling

[Time2Jet]

2 hours ago, ClassicMuscle said:

From an audio perspective only, what is better for distribution for 21 zones?  Doing a Triad 16 and Triad 8 (stacked properly) or doing Binary Moip audio senders for each audio zone?  Not worried so much about the audio quality, just looking for which will be most dependable, work the smoothest in the C4 app, and play continuously without crashing.  My wife and I like to keep either Pandora or Sirius XM playing softly in the various zones (probably 5-6 zones) nearly 24 hours a day.  It's like "mall music" in the house to us and when the music is off, we feel like something is missing, lol. 

I agree with @gregheard regarding the AVPro 24x24 matrix.  It's really hard to overlook the support and warranty.  Plus, it does a little more natively with being able to feed it audio back from a display for instance (up to 130m via a balun or out to a zone via a balun).  That's not a knock on Triad, as I use it in my office and it's been great.  But I have 3 AVPro 24x24 in the wild with zero issues so far.  The driver is bulletproof as well.  I think most AVPro products play very nice with C4 and to be honest, I think you'll save money with AVPro versus 2 Triad Matrix's.  

[LollerAgent]

53 minutes ago, time2jet said:

I agree with @gregheard regarding the AVPro 24x24 matrix.  It's really hard to overlook the support and warranty.  Plus, it does a little more natively with being able to feed it audio back from a display for instance (up to 130m via a balun or out to a zone via a balun).  That's not a knock on Triad, as I use it in my office and it's been great.  But I have 3 AVPro 24x24 in the wild with zero issues so far.  The driver is bulletproof as well.  I think most AVPro products play very nice with C4 and to be honest, I think you'll save money with AVPro versus 2 Triad Matrix's.  

I'm a bit surprised that the 24x24 matrix only has two digital inputs. I think I use 4-6 digital inputs on my Triad.