Help Me Pick C4 Installer

[ClassicMuscle]

I am currently interviewing and getting quotes from two different C4 dealers in my area.  They are both coming in close on price for the total job, which is in the $50-60K range.  Company #1 is trying to sell me products like a 4x4 AvPro Edge video matrix/AVPro Edge baluns with Araknis Networks switches/AP points + Sonance 6.5 outdoor speakers.  Company #2 is pushing Just Add Power for the video and Luxul + Pakedge for the network switch and access points, and some Episode 8IN speakers for an outdoor pool area.  

Looking at the brands both companies are suggesting, is one company suggesting better products than the other for roughly the same $$$?  I am new to this space and not a very tech savvy person, and I am having trouble deciding on the integrator for this job.  In addition to above, we are doing full Control 4 light switches (40-50 switches), adding Martin Logan sound bars to 4 TV zones, integrating with 8 existing audio zones in the home, and some other stuff.     

[Control4Savant]

39 minutes ago, ClassicMuscle said:

I am currently interviewing and getting quotes from two different C4 dealers in my area.  They are both coming in close on price for the total job, which is in the $50-60K range.  Company #1 is trying to sell me products like a 4x4 AvPro Edge video matrix/AVPro Edge baluns with Araknis Networks switches/AP points + Sonance 6.5 outdoor speakers.  Company #2 is pushing Just Add Power for the video and Luxul + Pakedge for the network switch and access points, and some Episode 8IN speakers for an outdoor pool area.  

Looking at the brands both companies are suggesting, is one company suggesting better products than the other for roughly the same $$$?  I am new to this space and not a very tech savvy person, and I am having trouble deciding on the integrator for this job.  In addition to above, we are doing full Control 4 light switches (40-50 switches), adding Martin Logan sound bars to 4 TV zones, integrating with 8 existing audio zones in the home, and some other stuff.     

Yes, they are different. 

Company 1 is offering an HDMI matrix/extender solution. AVPro Edge makes awesome stuff. This is technically the older or less advanced way but we all know that with less tech can sometimes come with less tech support. The Araknis networking would be a technical step down from Pakedge, both being owned by SnapAV/Control4.

Company 2 is offering a Video over IP solution (VoIP). Just Add Power is on of the leaders in VoIP systems as a 3rd part option. SnapAV/C4 have their own "MoIP" system using the Araknis networking equipment, Savant has their own using Netgear...etc...Just Add Power prefer to use the high quality L3 networking Luxul switches provide, I assume the Pakedge gear is for the remainder of the networking.  

I would see if company 1 is capable of a VoIP system. IMO if they are capable of selling a $50k+ system they should have that option to install a more technical system or its a red flag and would leave me with concerns about the overall project. VoIP is easier to expand or upgrade. It is also 2 computers sending data packets so it connects via network and is not limited by distance like standard HDMI or video signal. With that said, if you never plan to expand beyond a 4x4 setup JAP is probably overkill. The AVPro edge can also do true 4K60 4:4:4, I would have to confirm JAPs latest 4K capabilities. 

Your outdoor speaker options are a wash. I would go with whichever has the more units/ most coverage which will make the overall listening experience more pleasant. 

 

 

[ClassicMuscle]

Thanks so much for that!  Well, Company #2 (offering JAP) is actually coming in cheaper than Company #1 as well.  So basically, you are saying JAP would be superior here, especially if being offered for a lower price?  And that Pakedge is superior over Araknis?   

[BraydonH]

JAP is not superior to the AV Pro Edge 4x4. They are different beasts. JAP is more flexible. So if one day you needed a 5th or a 6th TV / Source it is much easier to do so. It can expand to have much more than 4 sources and 4 displays.

AV Pro Edge has better video capabilities, 4K60 4:4:4. And its less compressed. There is also much less latency if doing gaming or something like that.

In a small residential setting I would probably take the AV Pro Edge if it was my call. But realistically they are both great products and its really a win/win situation. 

[Control4Savant]

We will see in time if SnapAV/C4 does having both brands. Pakedge is the superior network line to Araknis. Both now have OvRC support.

JAP vs AVPro are different technologies. JAP is more advanced. It is also much more likely to need support. With the AVPro, if you want more than 4 TV locations or more than 4 sources to view you would need to upgrade to a larger matrix and purchase additional baluns. With JAP you would need to (depending on network switch size) configure or preconfigure and add additional transmitters or receivers. Both have cost to them to do. JAP or VoIP allows you to keep equipment spread out through the home but all part of single shared network without the "centralized" equipment. The AVPro stuff will be able to do more advanced video/audio signals. 

 

[mujtaba.khokhar]

@AVNeeds 

VOIP = Voice over IP (this is for voice only)

MOIP = Media over IP, some brands like wyrestorm call this HDoverIP (HDOIP) 

sorry to nit pick, didn't want OP to get confused if they google VOIP

Also my 2 cents, I prefer araknis over pakedge ESP the routers they have more functionality and a firewall you can actually adjust. 

Thanks 

Muj

[msgreenf]

@mujtaba.khokhar - This is VoIP = Video Over IP

[mujtaba.khokhar]

Voice over Internet Protocol (VoIP), also called IP telephony, is a method and group of technologies for the delivery of voice communications and multimedia sessions over Internet Protocol (IP) networks, such as the Internet. The terms Internet telephony, broadband telephony, and broadband phone service specifically refer to the provisioning of communications services (voice, fax, SMS, voice-messaging) over the Internet, rather than via the public switched telephone network (PSTN), also known as plain old telephone service (POTS).

Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_over_IP

Lets not start WW3 here. 

as i said didn't want OP to google VOIP and it comes up with VOIP solutions lol 

Thanks 

Muj

[lippavisual]

Nitpicking here too!

Technically it's AVoIP.

[South Africa C4 user]

I would check JAPs 4K capabilities.  I suspect that if you are not planning to add TVs, company 1 is a better option as you will have higher quality picture with more stability...

I spent days deciding between JAP and a traditional matrix for my second house 2 years ago and video quality ultimately drove me down the traditional matrix route. But, that was 2 years ago and I am sure JAP has developed since then.

[Control4Savant]

2 hours ago, mujtaba.khokhar said:

@AVNeeds 

VOIP = Voice over IP (this is for voice only)

MOIP = Media over IP, some brands like wyrestorm call this HDoverIP (HDOIP) 

sorry to nit pick, didn't want OP to get confused if they google VOIP

Also my 2 cents, I prefer araknis over pakedge ESP the routers they have more functionality and a firewall you can actually adjust. 

Thanks 

Muj

[ClassicMuscle]

4 hours ago, South Africa C4 user said:

I would check JAPs 4K capabilities.  I suspect that if you are not planning to add TVs, company 1 is a better option as you will have higher quality picture with more stability...

I spent days deciding between JAP and a traditional matrix for my second house 2 years ago and video quality ultimately drove me down the traditional matrix route. But, that was 2 years ago and I am sure JAP has developed since then.

 

Anyone have input on if JAP has improved recently?  

[joecheech]

I’m actually a little disappointed that we didn’t get more fireworks with the VoIP vs. Voip sub-category. We are overdue

[booch]

5 hours ago, ClassicMuscle said:

 

Anyone have input on if JAP has improved recently?  

I have a JAP 3G+ setup feeding 10 monitors, 9 of which are 2020 LG GX OLEDs. I'm very impressed by the system. All the forum stories regarding switching delays and sync. didn't materialize -- actually, the switching speed is amazing. The only 4K content I really display is art, and it looks great. 'Regular TV' looks great as well, but I don't know if that's the distributed video or LG processing. Given the inherent flexibility (i.e., modular, distributed component failure, etc.) of the system, I don't see how this doesn't become the standard over a matrix.

[eggzlot]

dont underestimate dealer relationship.  If you like 1 company or person vs another, that will go a long way.  Better to spend a buck or two more know if you just get a better vibe or feeling from one of the companies vs the other.

Did you ask both companies to speak to references?  Do those references have approx the same type of installation as you?  If the company gives you a reference of someone who did Control4 in 1 room with a TV/Projector/Lights that is not really going to speak to the type of install you list above.

Lastly, if you do not know what 4:4:4 means, get the JAP hardware if all else is equal.  Too many times people chase theoretical #s which cannot really be seen by the human.  Sitting in a living room with a TV and windows and ceiling lights and everything - so many variables to get the "perfect" view, I find it hard you'll notice 4:4:2 vs 4:4:4.  On top of that, if you get modular hardware, like JAP, you can always swap in new RX/TX devices when released and not have to replace the entire system.  I use Video Storm - another Video over IP solution - and the delay or compression is not really noticeable - again something on paper as a number but no person has come to my house and asked about a "delay" or "compressed artifacts".  

[ClassicMuscle]

For the AVPro Edge stuff, can anyone comment on whether the video matrix should be HDBT style or not?  The out-of-state C4 dealer who did my other house, whom I trust, is saying Company #1 here should be using HDBT because it cuts down on the amount sending/receiving baluns needed at the rack since you would only need a receiving balun at the TV only.  However, when asked about the HDBT, Company #1 stated: 

"HDBT Matrix was not selected based on a collaboration of experience from our seasoned staff. The cost works out to be about the same. We like the modularity of having separate transmitters in case of a service issue years down the road. In the event the matrix needs repair its easier for us to provide you with a temporary work around. Plus collectively we are of the opinion that HDMI outputs on a matrix have a lower rate of failure than HDBaseT ports. It's a small point but that is the reasoning."

[Dave w]

Only thing to add to above is ask them about the Origin Acoustic landscape speakers for outdoor area.  They are a Billings times better than the Episodes and 1/2 a million times better than sonance in sound quality and build quality.   

[Topspin14m]

The biggest issue I'd think with video over IP (at least that I haven't been able to find a remedy for yet that isn't incredibly complicated or expensive) is getting Dolby Vision at 60 hz.  I don't care about 4:4:4 that much, but Dolby Vision is becoming the standard for Netflix and others.  Being limited to 30 hz is kind of unfortunate.

Only product that claims to do it (that I can find) is https://atlona.com/omnistream-av-over-ip-dolby-vision/.  Have no idea what it costs, but it seems kind of complicated. 

[eggzlot]

1 hour ago, Topspin14m said:

The biggest issue I'd think with video over IP (at least that I haven't been able to find a remedy for yet that isn't incredibly complicated or expensive) is getting Dolby Vision at 60 hz.  I don't care about 4:4:4 that much, but Dolby Vision is becoming the standard for Netflix and others.  Being limited to 30 hz is kind of unfortunate.

Only product that claims to do it (that I can find) is https://atlona.com/omnistream-av-over-ip-dolby-vision/.  Have no idea what it costs, but it seems kind of complicated. 

How many TVs need 60hz?  I have a Sony tv that can handle it. In that room I use the smart app on the tv

for our use only time we sync sources on tv around house are for parties.  Which pre covid meant award shows, New Years or a big game.  Never had to do Netflix shared.  That said I have an android tv that is in my video matrix w Netflix on it so I could share Netflix without Dolby vision.  If I want it I use the app on the local tv

of course different people have different uses but just food for thought 

[Topspin14m]

3 hours ago, eggzlot said:

How many TVs need 60hz?  I have a Sony tv that can handle it. In that room I use the smart app on the tv

for our use only time we sync sources on tv around house are for parties.  Which pre covid meant award shows, New Years or a big game.  Never had to do Netflix shared.  That said I have an android tv that is in my video matrix w Netflix on it so I could share Netflix without Dolby vision.  If I want it I use the app on the local tv

of course different people have different uses but just food for thought 

I guess that's true. I was thinking Apple TV through the matrix to get it integrated into Control 4 (so you can press Netflix and everything gets set up).  I assumed it gets sloppy to use Control 4 with built in TV apps or Apple TV's directly attached to the TVs themselves.  Is that wrong?  

To me the main feature of video distribution is to make everything work smoothly with Control 4.  It is nice to have the cleaner look too when you hang your TV, but nowadays I feel as though with tiny cable boxes, built in TV apps, and the like, there is little need to share the same thing across multiple TVs in a residential environment (I get why at a bar or restaurant you'd need it).

[eggzlot]

35 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

I guess that's true. I was thinking Apple TV through the matrix to get it integrated into Control 4 (so you can press Netflix and everything gets set up).  I assumed it gets sloppy to use Control 4 with built in TV apps or Apple TV's directly attached to the TVs themselves.  Is that wrong?  

To me the main feature of video distribution is to make everything work smoothly with Control 4.  It is nice to have the cleaner look too when you hang your TV, but nowadays I feel as though with tiny cable boxes, built in TV apps, and the like, there is little need to share the same thing across multiple TVs in a residential environment (I get why at a bar or restaurant you'd need it).

Sony tv is android tv.  There are mini apps so I can launch Netflix 4k which is the app in the Sony by clicking watch Netflix 4k.  On my android tv box which is shared in the matrix Netflix is just “Netflix”.  It’s the only streaming service we use and only 2 people in the house. I actually hide “Netflix” in the 4k room and only show Netflix 4k that said I could join by adding watch Netflix and just I hide that source in that room but it’s never been needed.  We only distribute cable for events as mentioned

again different uses for diff people 

[Control4Savant]

On 1/16/2021 at 2:33 PM, ClassicMuscle said:

For the AVPro Edge stuff, can anyone comment on whether the video matrix should be HDBT style or not?  The out-of-state C4 dealer who did my other house, whom I trust, is saying Company #1 here should be using HDBT because it cuts down on the amount sending/receiving baluns needed at the rack since you would only need a receiving balun at the TV only.  However, when asked about the HDBT, Company #1 stated: 

"HDBT Matrix was not selected based on a collaboration of experience from our seasoned staff. The cost works out to be about the same. We like the modularity of having separate transmitters in case of a service issue years down the road. In the event the matrix needs repair its easier for us to provide you with a temporary work around. Plus collectively we are of the opinion that HDMI outputs on a matrix have a lower rate of failure than HDBaseT ports. It's a small point but that is the reasoning."

Company 1s answer is true....HDBT ports are also the most likely thing to fail and if one port goes bad you will need to replace the whole unit. Having separates of are easier to service and easier to upgrade/scale in the future. The only real advantage with a matrix is the 1% of top end A/V JAP might not currently be compatible with. I would rather a standard HDMI switch and separate HDBT baluns that you can swap depending on needs. 

[Control4Savant]

16 hours ago, eggzlot said:

How many TVs need 60hz?  I have a Sony tv that can handle it. In that room I use the smart app on the tv

for our use only time we sync sources on tv around house are for parties.  Which pre covid meant award shows, New Years or a big game.  Never had to do Netflix shared.  That said I have an android tv that is in my video matrix w Netflix on it so I could share Netflix without Dolby vision.  If I want it I use the app on the local tv

of course different people have different uses but just food for thought 

There is a noticeable difference in 30vs60hz IMO...not that 30 cant be thoroughly enjoyed.

[ClassicMuscle]

3 minutes ago, AVNeeds said:

Company 1s answer is true....HDBT ports are also the most likely thing to fail and if one port goes bad you will need to replace the whole unit. Having separates of are easier to service and easier to upgrade/scale in the future. The only real advantage with a matrix is the 1% of top end A/V JAP might not currently be compatible with. I would rather a standard HDMI switch and separate HDBT baluns that you can swap depending on needs. 

Seems like alot of people in favor of JAP on this thread?  Why doesn't everyone just use JAP then?  Why are these video matrix's even still being used is they are so non scalable and more prone to being inexpensive when something breaks, etc?  I am about to place the order and am still on the fence to go with Jap or Matrix.  We typically only use 4 sources, 2 cable boxes and 2 Apple TVs.  And we are currently doing video into 4 zones and I don't really think we'll add more zones down the line.  But still go with JAP even for that?  

[lippavisual]

13 minutes ago, AVNeeds said:

There is a noticeable difference in 30vs60hz IMO...not that 30 cant be thoroughly enjoyed.

Most, if not all, video is produced and recorded at 30Hz.  The human eye can not perceive the difference between 30/60.  Only test equipment can show the difference between the 2.