Do NOT buy from BLACKWIRE

[therockhr]

26 minutes ago, seth_j said:

You're getting a few people mixed up here -- and its adding confusion to the conversation.

• Original dealer wasn't on the job.
• New dealer called and was denied based on policy.
• Homeowner called and was rude to our tech support guys (yes we have the recording).
• We reached out to new dealer who ghosted or was busy or whatever to try and help fix.

After not hearing anything back over the weekend we [Blackwire] proactively followed up with the original dealer and got everything squared away. Issues like this are extremely rare and we have the policy in place because the customers we service (dealers) overwhelmingly understand why its in place. 

You guys can keep bitching and moaning about nonsense you can't do anything about unless you own 1) Control4 or 2) Blackwire but everything is all good now because thats how we work at Blackwire. We're all former dealers here and we don't leave anyone hanging  -- including people who call and are not nice on the phone -- because we have all been there.

tl;dr everything was fixed because we are not assholes like the OP suggests but that won't matter here because there's a dead horse to beat 

and lets be clear here....you followed up over the weekend because the guy created this thread. without it you would have just let the request get denied.

Again, why you all needed to just deny the request "because of your policy" instead of right then just following up with the original dealer or working to resolve the issue was the problem. 

[RyanE]

9 minutes ago, therockhr said:

Again, why you all needed to just deny the request "because of your policy" instead of right then just following up with the original dealer or working to resolve the issue was the problem. 

Seems to me it's a pretty good policy if a dealer just comes in unannounced, and says they should move over drivers from another dealer.

"I'm gonna need you to just forward all the licenses to me, without any kind of verification"...

Nope.

RyanE

[wnpublic]

2 hours ago, seth_j said:

You guys can keep bitching and moaning about nonsense you can't do anything about unless you own 1) Control4 or 2) Blackwire

19 hours ago, Dunamivora said:

 If you don't like the policy, buy somewhere else.

1 hour ago, RyanE said:

Nope.

Well, we've all learned a lot about this ecosystem, and the people who work in it.  Bottom line is that the real customers are dealers; end users are just people who like to bitch and moan and don't understand anything.

[therockhr]

1 hour ago, RyanE said:

Seems to me it's a pretty good policy if a dealer just comes in unannounced, and says they should move over drivers from another dealer.

"I'm gonna need you to just forward all the licenses to me, without any kind of verification"...

Nope.

RyanE

if the owner of the C4 system can confirm it is them for them then yeah, why not? The drivers shouldnt belong to the dealer. If that is the case a dealer could get upset if a customer dropped them and just transfer that license away from the owner.

I dont get involved with licenses much but from what I have seen when a software license gets purchased via a distributor or 3rd party, the license becomes the property of the end user. They are the ones who have their name on the license no matter who they bought it through. I get that Blackwire is a B2B and dont sell directly to customers. Not unusual. But once a dealer buys a driver through Blackwire for that customer, the customer should be the owner of the driver and should be able to move it how they see fit. 

The driver should have 2 things; the owner and the dealer of record. The dealer of record should be able to be changed at any time by the owner.

[-defunct-]

I honestly have no idea why you guys are continuing on.

The policies were described and the licensing structure was explained to be given only to the dealer.

Certified Pro systems are handled much differently than regular consumer devices. It's obvious you guys don't like the model, but I doubt it will change.

[Cyknight]

21 hours ago, wnpublic said:

QED

You do not seem to truly understand the meaning of this.

[wnpublic]

22 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

You do not seem to truly understand the meaning of this.

My multiple post-graduate degrees say otherwise.  But I'm sure a guy on the Internet who sells and installs expensive/underperforming networking doodads and uses a handle no doubt derived from World of Warcraft has me to dead to rights on this one.

[-defunct-]

15 minutes ago, wnpublic said:

My multiple post-graduate degrees say otherwise.  But I'm sure a guy on the Internet who sells and installs expensive/underperforming networking doodads and uses a handle no doubt derived from World of Warcraft has me to dead to rights on this one.

You sure about that? The comments following your first statement seem to contradict your first statement.

Or is petulance something taught in grad school?

[wnpublic]

4 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

You sure about that? The comments following your first statement seem to contradict your first statement.

Or is petulance something taught in grad school?

You don't seem very busy.  Let's check in after next quarter when you've helped them lose another $21M or more.

[BXTR]

16 minutes ago, wnpublic said:

My multiple post-graduate degrees say otherwise.  But I'm sure a guy on the Internet who sells and installs overpriced/underperforming networking doodads and uses a handle no doubt derived from World of Warcraft has me to dead to rights on this one.

We’re all super impressed at how intelligent you must be with all them edumacation degrees you gots there

I’m just a working schlub but I can tell you how many degrees my most wealthy clients have and it rhymes with “hero” 

[-defunct-]

1 minute ago, wnpublic said:

You don't seem very busy.  Let's check in after next quarter when you've helped them lose another $21M or more.

More petulance...

Although I'd argue it's not a bad thing keeping customers who respect the dealer model and losing the others.

[JOESMO]

Please stop poking the Trolls.

[therockhr]

15 minutes ago, JOESMO said:

Please stop poking the Trolls.

HAPPY FIRST POST

[therockhr]

2 hours ago, Dunamivora said:

I honestly have no idea why you guys are continuing on.

The policies were described and the licensing structure was explained to be given only to the dealer.

Certified Pro systems are handled much differently than regular consumer devices. It's obvious you guys don't like the model, but I doubt it will change.

There is a world outside of consumer devices that operates in a similar fashion that doesnt tie software licenses with a distributor. This has nothing to do with the whole "Certified Pro Systems" and dealer model. It has everything to do with an end user not having to be charged again for something they already purchased. In the end, the end user didnt but I suspect if it wasnt for this thread that they might have been stuck.

[South Africa C4 user]

Hello everyone… this thread is starting to get out of hand.  I have genuine respect for most people on this forum including individuals on both side of this debate.  And I honestly don’t think all of the mud slinging is doing anything for anyone… 

It would be really nice if we all just allowed this thread to die a natural death.

[Gary Leeds UK]

On 11/10/2021 at 8:29 PM, msgreenf said:

the guy who started the thread is gone - why are we still talking about this?

We are talking about it because - Kevin at Blackwire does not think End Users have any rights ?

And this is the Dealer Model which Control4 (SNAP) Push  - Starts to look that way too for Control4 Hardware and Software

As a end user you buy the Driver /Hardware - however we do not own it ? - Or do the dealers own it ?

Could this be a class action  ?

Do the dealers Terms and Conditions match that of Blackwire/Control4 ? 

 

[Gary Leeds UK]

1 hour ago, South Africa C4 user said:

Hello everyone… this thread is starting to get out of hand.  I have genuine respect for most people on this forum including individuals on both side of this debate.  And I honestly don’t think all of the mud slinging is doing anything for anyone… 

It would be really nice if we all just allowed this thread to die a natural death.

Most disagree - This brings up issues about ownership  

Rolex is bought from a dealer - but you can take it back to any dealer for a warranty repair and if you sell it to a other person - The Warranty will be transfer to that person - The Rolex owner is a end user   

[msgreenf]

12 minutes ago, Gary Leeds UK said:

We are talking about it because - Kevin at Blackwire does not think End Users have any rights ?

And this is the Dealer Model which Control4 (SNAP) Push  - Starts to look that way too for Control4 Hardware and Software

As a end user you buy the Driver /Hardware - however we do not own it ? - Or do the dealers own it ?

Could this be a class action  ?

Do the dealers Terms and Conditions match that of Blackwire/Control4 ? 

 

Yes file a class action... lawsuits solve all problems. How do you sue a company of which you aren't a customer?

[Gary Leeds UK]

2 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

Yes file a class action... lawsuits solve all problems. How do you sue a company of which you aren't a customer?

I have the driver you sold me that got transfer to Blackwire - So yes Iam a customer of Blackwire - By accident 

[ejn1]

So if I buy a copy of Windows from an authorized reseller, then does the reseller own the license key?   Sorry, I'm just baffled by this thread and complete disconnect with who pays the bills in the end-to-end value chain.  

If the goal is to sell as little as possible of a product with nearly zero marginal cost, then mission accomplished.

 

[-defunct-]

It's hard explaining to a group that comes in with presumptions and preexisting ideals, but I think one last explanation is worth the time.

This licensing structure would be akin to a manufacturer or developer including a license for a piece of code. If windows includes third party code that requires a license, the windows user does not own that license.

Every device that has Airplay2 requires a license or certification from Apple, the customer doesn't own that certification or license.

With the Pro-model, the Pro designs/configures the system and some customizeability is available to the users, or not, depending on what the Pro adds or does not add to the designed/programmed system.

[msgreenf]

but i do agree - the customer owns the license.  The dealer buys it and sells it to the customer.  But the distribution requires that dealer to hold the license and key in "escrow" kinda setup.

WIth that said, for any customer I have ever sold a license to for anything, I have moved their licenses between new EA's without charge or friction.  Sometimes it takes a few hours (aka when I get emails in the middle of the night) but most of the time I do it very swiftly. 

[-defunct-]

I think it depends on the dealer. I do not know if Blackwire requires the license be a line-item on a bill of materials for payment on a system. Some may roll it into a cost vs charging for the license cost individually.

[wnpublic]

39 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

This licensing structure would be akin to a manufacturer or developer including a license for a piece of code. If windows includes third party code that requires a license, the windows user does not own that license.

Every device that has Airplay2 requires a license or certification from Apple, the customer doesn't own that certification or license.

This is a completely broken and naive understanding of IP licensing, and a broken analogy.  End-user isn't line-item charged for the rights for third party IP in software; nor is a reseller they buy it from.  Instead, the royalty stack is part of manufacturer's costs, and is reflected in the total price paid by the reseller (or the end user).  Here, the driver has a discrete price.  The end user pays it to the dealer.

[-defunct-]

First part of your comment was wholly unnecessary and provides little to nothing.

Second part, I admit I didn't explain the reasoning behind why I look at it that way and for a dealer like msgreenf, you are correct. I do not know if Blackwire requires the driver license to be a line-item purchased by the customer. If a dealer lumps it into a project quote like a manufacturer does for a functioning device, then it would be handled differently.