Do NOT buy from BLACKWIRE

[RyanE]

1 hour ago, Freethrow14 said:

I was recently looking to add some 3rd party drivers to my system but now realize it’s a little more complicated the I would ever have realized. I will have to do more homework. 

I suspect for 95%+ of customers, this will never be an issue.

If your dealer works with Blackwire, and stays in business while they're your dealer, you likely will have no issues.  I don't think the whole story is being told here, and the only one who knows the full story is not going to comment on it.

RyanE

[Gary Leeds UK]

4 hours ago, ejn1 said:

This thread has been very educational for any end user buying a 3P driver.   Do some research what you really own, who owns it,  how will you be able to move it around later, etc.      It's clear that the end user is not viewed as the customer in this example so some considerations to ponder.    I do get amazed when the channel (eg dealer) is discussed as the customer as it's not what I see in my business.

Totally agree 

Shows how us "end users" are viewed 

[Köhler Medientechnik]

I don´t see the big difference to other areas.

If you want to buy a Yamaha AVR, you can´t directly buy from Yamaha as an end-user. 
There is Yamaha as the manufacturer, a distributor who sells stuff from the manufacturer to the dealer, the dealer sells to the end-user.
So the general concept is not new.

What´s a bit different with software is, that you don´t actually have a product in your hand, but you buy a license.
This needs some license management and there should indeed be a mechanism in place to "hand over" that license to the "end-customer" as part of the solution he gets from the dealer. So IMHO the "end-customer" should at least get some prove of purchase for 3rd party drivers so he can ownership in case the dealer dispappears.

[eggzlot]

4 hours ago, Köhler Medientechnik said:

I don´t see the big difference to other areas.

If you want to buy a Yamaha AVR, you can´t directly buy from Yamaha as an end-user. 
There is Yamaha as the manufacturer, a distributor who sells stuff from the manufacturer to the dealer, the dealer sells to the end-user.
So the general concept is not new.

What´s a bit different with software is, that you don´t actually have a product in your hand, but you buy a license.
This needs some license management and there should indeed be a mechanism in place to "hand over" that license to the "end-customer" as part of the solution he gets from the dealer. So IMHO the "end-customer" should at least get some prove of purchase for 3rd party drivers so he can ownership in case the dealer dispappears.

If you buy the AVR from John’s Audio and they go out of business or you have issues with them as a business but your AVR needs updates, you can’ still download updates.  If the AVR is broken you can still send it back to Yamaha for service without going through John’s Audio.  You may have purchased it from them but the relationship can cease there without much impact to the buyer.  It “seems” that is not as “easy” here so its not a direct comparison - partially due to the dealer model.  

[LollerAgent]

9 hours ago, RyanE said:

If your dealer works with Blackwire, and stays in business while they're your dealer

Yes, *if your dealer stays in business*.. potentially a pretty big "if" these days.  I wish something could be figured out that made a Control4 customer's experience less painful if and when this happens.

[RAV]

Lets go back in time a bit.

When writing programming for things like Crestron, it wasn't unheard of to buy code for a product for an application rather than write it all yourself. These modules became integrated into the software for the home, and their cost incorporated into the final programming charge to the home owner, and locked through compiling. Rather invisible to the end user.

Now it's visible. A dealer needs code to make a project work. He buys the code from a programmer and charges the end user. This is the same business model that's always existed. Since the end user isn't in a position to program the system themselves, rather by design of the system, or by the training and understanding of programming that would be required, therefor the dealer is the buyer.

Granted today there's a lot more visibility, and the days of code being held hostage by the original programmer are mostly gone. But the transaction processes is still code sold to a dealer to resell to an end user.

The process is the same as it's always been.

I do also believe that today a home owner shouldn't be held hostage by a dealer. Control4 has pretty much solved that, you need a dealer, but you can transfer a system to any dealer at will, and there's software to make tweaks.

Driver distributors are stuck in the middle, they need to appease both the dealer and the end user. Revenue to a dealer and allowing for end user dealer changes. Not an easy place to be, and I for one don't have a better way to suggest.

As mentioned, tied to a project has it's faults, tied to a Control4 account has it's faults, so currently it's tied to a MAC address, and the buying dealer is in charge of and allowed to make changes.

So lets agree it's not perfect. And if anyone has a better idea, lets hear it.

[Köhler Medientechnik]

1 hour ago, eggzlot said:

It “seems” that is not as “easy” here so its not a direct comparison - partially due to the dealer model.  

True - that´s why i pointed out that there´s an additional twist with handling software licenses as compared to just a hardware purchase.

I think what´s seen as "easy" and what not, depends on the customer´s point of view.

The customers i have would hate it if they had to deal with the purchase and license stuff related to 3rd party drivers themselves. 
The more hands-on type of customer wouldn´t have a problem with that and potentially even prefer it.
I´ve got the impression the real problem here is that some of the users here just don´t like the dealer model anyway, so of course they hate the "blackwire approach" anyway.

[Cyknight]

3 hours ago, LollerAgent said:

Yes, *if your dealer stays in business*.. potentially a pretty big "if" these days.  I wish something could be figured out that made a Control4 customer's experience less painful if and when this happens.

To be clear, in this WHOLE scenario there isn't just 'a dealer that went out of business' it would seem. There are multiple dealers involved, adding multiple 3rd party drivers.

 

If it was as simple as Dealer A went out of business, Dealer B requests to move licenses' this whole thread would have never even existed. I suspect that after confirming dealer A is gone, the license would be transferred.

 

Here it would seem to be coming clear there are numerous layers of dealers, drivers and licenses muddying the whole thing up.

[LollerAgent]

18 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

To be clear, in this WHOLE scenario there isn't just 'a dealer that went out of business' it would seem. There are multiple dealers involved, adding multiple 3rd party drivers.

 

If it was as simple as Dealer A went out of business, Dealer B requests to move licenses' this whole thread would have never even existed. I suspect that after confirming dealer A is gone, the license would be transferred.

 

Here it would seem to be coming clear there are numerous layers of dealers, drivers and licenses muddying the whole thing up.

Right - I'm not saying this is an easy problem to solve, but it *is* a problem. 

[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, LollerAgent said:

Right - I'm not saying this is an easy problem to solve, but it *is* a problem. 

Is it? How often has it REALLY caused any issues? How many posts about license issues stemming from dealer changes have we had on here (where the dealer turnover is likely much higher than the norm - it's part of the reason some of the end users are on here to begin with)? So far I count 1, though there may have been others.

If Blackwire, driver central or another C4 dealer contacted me about giving consent to move drivers over, I'd really have no issue doing so. It has never been an issue the other way around either.

I suppose I could imagine a situation where the client-dealer relation is so bad that there could be issues getting consent, but I'd say if it were to go that far, the issue isn't the model, but (some) the people involved.

 

[msgreenf]

the guy who started the thread is gone - why are we still talking about this?

[therockhr]

30 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

the guy who started the thread is gone - why are we still talking about this?

The guy has had an account for 3 years and posted on Sunday. Maybe he doesnt get on everyday. The Blackwire guy let this thread go unanswered longer than that.

As stated by the owner, Blackwire's policy seems to be to deny requests by new dealers for transferring licenses. Sorry, but to just deny that request and not at least call the new dealer or have them call you to talk about it is a bad policy. You all can make excuses for them however you want but its obvious why the end user and dealer were upset.

[RyanE]

The "Blackwire guy" doesn't need to answer to anything, and what their policy "seems to be" according to this thread is unlikely to be correct.

He said / she said, but even stupider.

RyanE

[wnpublic]

28 minutes ago, RyanE said:

The "Blackwire guy" doesn't need to answer to anything, and what their policy "seems to be" according to this thread is unlikely to be correct

That attitude toward end users probably has nothing to do with last quarter's $22m SnapOne loss....

[-defunct-]

3 minutes ago, wnpublic said:

That attitude toward end users probably has nothing to do with last quarter's $22m SnapOne loss....

It actually has nothing to do with it. ‍♂

[-defunct-]

I get that certain end users (like .1%) may be put off by the policies, but that's why competitors exist. If you don't like the policy, buy somewhere else. There are some open source DIY projects that might like more tech-savvy people to join.

[wnpublic]

3 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

I get that certain end users (like .1%) may be put off by the policies, but that's why competitors exist. If you don't like the policy, buy somewhere else. There are some open source DIY projects that might like more tech-savvy people to join.

QED

[therockhr]

3 hours ago, RyanE said:

The "Blackwire guy" doesn't need to answer to anything, and what their policy "seems to be" according to this thread is unlikely to be correct.

He said / she said, but even stupider.

RyanE

The guy literally said his policy was to deny these requests. 
 

it seems that both sides pretty much agree on what happened. People can just pick their side. I’ll pick the side of the person who didn’t want to pay for something they already purchased. 

[therockhr]

3 hours ago, Dunamivora said:

I get that certain end users (like .1%) may be put off by the policies, but that's why competitors exist. If you don't like the policy, buy somewhere else. There are some open source DIY projects that might like more tech-savvy people to join.

“If you don’t like it here you can just leave”. 

People also have the option of voicing their displeasure. 

[-defunct-]

4 minutes ago, therockhr said:

“If you don’t like it here you can just leave”. 

People also have the option of voicing their displeasure. 

And people also have the option of totally ignoring it.

[ejn1]

I think above would put off more than 0.1% of customers, imo.... assuming they know in advance of the policies which maybe this thread will help highlight.

 

[RyanE]

4 hours ago, therockhr said:

The guy literally said his policy was to deny these requests. 

The guy also said:

"I personally reached out to the dealer who contacted us and asked for all the licenses in the project they needed transferred. As of this post we have not heard back."

RyanE

[therockhr]

7 hours ago, RyanE said:

The guy also said:

"I personally reached out to the dealer who contacted us and asked for all the licenses in the project they needed transferred. As of this post we have not heard back."

RyanE

Again, he initially denied the request "based on our policy". There would have been no follow up if the new dealer didnt reach out and go off on them. 

I'm just spitballing here but I would say a better way to handle this would have been to reach out first instead of just denying the request.

[seth_j]

1 hour ago, therockhr said:

Again, he initially denied the request "based on our policy". There would have been no follow up if the new dealer didnt reach out and go off on them. 

I'm just spitballing here but I would say a better way to handle this would have been to reach out first instead of just denying the request.

You're getting a few people mixed up here -- and its adding confusion to the conversation.

• Original dealer wasn't on the job.
• New dealer called and was denied based on policy.
• Homeowner called and was rude to our tech support guys (yes we have the recording).
• We reached out to new dealer who ghosted or was busy or whatever to try and help fix.

After not hearing anything back over the weekend we [Blackwire] proactively followed up with the original dealer and got everything squared away. Issues like this are extremely rare and we have the policy in place because the customers we service (dealers) overwhelmingly understand why its in place. 

You guys can keep bitching and moaning about nonsense you can't do anything about unless you own 1) Control4 or 2) Blackwire but everything is all good now because thats how we work at Blackwire. We're all former dealers here and we don't leave anyone hanging  -- including people who call and are not nice on the phone -- because we have all been there.

tl;dr everything was fixed because we are not assholes like the OP suggests but that won't matter here because there's a dead horse to beat 

[therockhr]

25 minutes ago, seth_j said:

tl;dr everything was fixed because we are not assholes like the OP suggests but that won't matter here because there's a dead horse to beat 

yeah you all seem great...