Old C4, Hot Mess

[CharlieQuatro]

We have a dealer-installed and maintained C4 system.  We are running OS2. 

We have an EA5 and HC800.  The HC800 is the primary controller.  We have lots of reliability issues and the system must  be rebooted frequently

Our hardware is older, including 2 C4 amps and a 12x12 component video matrix.

Our dealer suggested an upgrade to OS3 and a MOIP based system.  I think our house has Cat5E wiring.  Another C4 dealer looked at our setup and told us that Binary MOIP equipment would absolutely not function with anything less than CAT6 cabling.  The suggested alternate solution would have been to (1): re-wire (not an option as we have no attic or  basement) (2) to junk C4 all together and go with Sonos & locally controlled media (Direct TV + Apple TV's for each room) or (3) to go with Savant or another system that uses central amps and distributed audio.

I'm looking for information that will help me understand these critically different opinions.  A: [C4 driving Binary MOIP could work with Cat5E]  or B: [Chuck C4 because our house is beyond C4-upgradable due to Cat5E, Lack of Cat6]

 

 

 

 

 

[Andrew luecke]

1 hour ago, CharlieQuatro said:

We have a dealer-installed and maintained C4 system.  We are running OS2. 

We have an EA5 and HC800.  The HC800 is the primary controller.  We have lots of reliability issues and the system must  be rebooted frequently

Our hardware is older, including 2 C4 amps and a 12x12 component video matrix.

Our dealer suggested an upgrade to OS3 and a MOIP based system.  I think our house has Cat5E wiring.  Another C4 dealer looked at our setup and told us that Binary MOIP equipment would absolutely not function with anything less than CAT6 cabling.  The suggested alternate solution would have been to (1): re-wire (not an option as we have no attic or  basement) (2) to junk C4 all together and go with Sonos & locally controlled media (Direct TV + Apple TV's for each room) or (3) to go with Savant or another system that uses central amps and distributed audio.

I'm looking for information that will help me understand these critically different opinions.  A: [C4 driving Binary MOIP could work with Cat5E]  or B: [Chuck C4 because our house is beyond C4-upgradable due to Cat5E, Lack of Cat6]

As per: https://www.control4.com/docs/product/binary-media-over-ip-moip/setup-guide/english/latest//binary-media-over-ip-moip-setup-guide-rev-b.pdf  CAT5e cabling is sufficient to support the MoIP system; however, with all networking installs utilizing shielded CAT5e, CAT6, CAT6A or CAT7 is recommended to minimize potential for interference from environmental factors

Between Cat5E and CAT6 really depends on the distance and how well the cable is run.. 

I'm not not sure about current pricing, but, sometimes, a HDBaseT matrix switch can also be cheaper too. What sources do you have? Finally, not sure about in your country, but in some, you can also do digital TV modulation (that sends a source as a TV channel and results vary based on the DVB-T technology available in that country).  But I haven't used the modulation driver 

 

If you're not sure, best to ask a second dealer, and make sure to ask lots of questions.  I've also personally only got minimal experience with Savant, but not really sure how they also not too familiar with Savant, but I'm a bit unclear what solution you'd be trying to solve by moving to Savant anyway.

[Gary Leeds UK]

We have Sonos and Local Controlled Media and have no issues at all. 

We also have lights, Alarm, Shades. 

We use  C4 to bring all the different Apps into one environment.

its worked well for us 

[RAV]

I assume central video is desired for audio extraction so TVs can play through distributed speakers?

Depending on how many TVs, you may want to consider locating the video at the TVs, and return the audio to the distributed system as a third option.
Returned audio is a lot lower bandwidth signal, and cheaper to return audio, than to matrix out video.
You will loose the ability to play one source to many TVs in sync for party situations.

[videostorm]

Our NetPlay system will run perfectly well via standard Cat5  (or even coax if that is all you have).  If you go the distributed video route it is a good affordable option that works with your existing wiring.  Very future proof as well.

https://video-storm.com/residential.php

[Cyknight]

13 hours ago, CharlieQuatro said:

Another C4 dealer looked at our setup and told us that Binary MOIP equipment would absolutely not function with anything less than CAT6 cabling.

Technically incorrect, but I've struggled enough with ANY brand  using CAT(5e) based distribution that I wouldn't WIRE anything but CAT6 at the very least for video - and would certainly communicate that issues are possible to any take-over client. Some may take that as far as plain refusing to deal with it (and the potential headaches). Don't agree with that type of stance, but I do understand the sentiment.

As it stands, it's for sure possible to get 1080p over Cat5E - I wouldn't guarantee 4K, but I wouldn't say it isn't possible either.

Also note that not all CAT(5e especially) is equal. there IS such a thing as a poor quality cat cable that gets run more often than 'd like to see. Just fixed an issue for someone yesterday where just plain crappy cat5e cable would not seat well in RJ45 connectors of any kind (we tested nearly two dozen options, even going so far as to get some EZ type ones), to where we terminated it all to punch downs and extended with pre-made cables.

[Cyknight]

13 hours ago, CharlieQuatro said:

B: [Chuck C4 because our house is beyond C4-upgradable due to Cat5E, Lack of Cat6]

B revised: Keep C4, and use local sources, using the Cat5E to send audio back to the amps.

B alternative revision: A Hybrid option with distributed 1080p mai sources, using local 4K sources, check option to send audio back to amplifiers.

 

Control4 ITSELF is not dependant on having Cat6 or better at all - Video Distribution is where you may have issues.

 

There's more than one way to skin a Cat5E

[zaphod]

@msgreenf Shouldn't this be moved to a different sub-forum?

[Andrew luecke]

By the way.. It could be worth asking the dealer how much the EA5 or HC800 is worth as part of the quote.. If they say the EA5 is worth throwing in the bin, you can be almost instantly sure they're going to sell it themselves (imho, definitely get a second quote though, as this seems suss to me)

 

To be honest, if Control4 hears that they're replacing a perfectly good EA5/HC800 with Savant, I suspect they may have some explaining to do (both are good systems. But irrespective of the justification of doing so, I seriously doubt its in your best interest, especially as EA5 is still a current model, and its the second best controller you can buy). And HC800 still runs OS3 fine. 

[Khemiicalz]

Def suss. Try decommissioning the hc-800 and having the ea5 run the system. It sounds like you are not expanding. Maybe updating to OS3 might alleviate the reliability issues. I would try to solve issue before tossing more money into it. 

The cost in “upgrading” to a savant system would rival (or surpass) the cost to patch and paint you place. 

[Cyknight]

On 4/5/2022 at 9:10 PM, CharlieQuatro said:

go with Savant or another system that uses central amps and distributed audio

Huh, I missed this completely. Nothing against Savant at all, but how would that fix the issue of the network cabling being sub-par?

[Control4Savant]

On 4/6/2022 at 10:06 AM, RAV said:

I assume central video is desired for audio extraction so TVs can play through distributed speakers?

Depending on how many TVs, you may want to consider locating the video at the TVs, and return the audio to the distributed system as a third option.
Returned audio is a lot lower bandwidth signal, and cheaper to return audio, than to matrix out video.
You will loose the ability to play one source to many TVs in sync for party situations.

A Savant solution would solve the local source/ synced distributed audio. The Cat5 can be utilized for AVB which is MUCH cheaper than a HDBT or AVoIP system. Savant has other design advantages but all brands have the same wire limitations.  

 

17 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

 

To be honest, if Control4 hears that they're replacing a perfectly good EA5/HC800 with Savant, I suspect they may have some explaining to do (both are good systems. But irrespective of the justification of doing so, I seriously doubt its in your best interest, especially as EA5 is still a current model, and its the second best controller you can buy). And HC800 still runs OS3 fine. 

I don’t understand… you think Control4 is going to contact the dealer about it?   

[Cyknight]

10 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

A Savant solution would solve the local source/ synced distributed audio.

So would a proper Control4 solution, or an Elan solution or..... The issue at hand - a distributed video system that has a potentially poor wire available - is not solved as such by the brand of control system.

Sure Savant using AVB is an option - but it's one heck of an expensive option to replace an existing system that is otherwise up to date (with Controllers, amplifiers and all), when the actual suggested solution you are using there is simply to go local source and send audio back instead - something that can be done for about $100 per TV hardware wise (not including the actual sources and time) and yes it'll be in sync.

 

On 4/5/2022 at 9:10 PM, CharlieQuatro said:

Our hardware is older, including 2 C4 amps and a 12x12 component video matrix.

Now, OP. You say you have an HC800 and an EEA5 , but the HC800 is running the show? That's not right...

The real question is going to be what other 'old' gear you have. Based on an EA5, and HC800 and two C4 amps alone, there's nothing there that prevents you from running OS3 already. So I wonder wy you wouldn't be on OS3 already.

Obviously the component matrix is outdated at this point, but it in and of itself doesn't stop you from going to a current software version.

On 4/5/2022 at 9:10 PM, CharlieQuatro said:

We have lots of reliability issues and the system must  be rebooted frequently

Question is why. An HC800 (or that EA5) in and of itself isn't the issue, short of a failing unit. Being on Component as such isn't an issue. 'Just' going to OS 3 won't fix a major reliability issue.

What do you mean by 'reliability issues'? Does video just stop playing? Then sure, it may be the video switch. But is that what's happening?

If you can clarify what you mean by 'reliability issues' and what it is that you're actually power cycling, perhaps that will help the people on this forum to pinpoint what the real issue is, and from there perhaps make suggestions.

Right now, for all we know you may have a bad network switch....

At the very least, the fact that you have Cat5E in no way means you can't have a Control4 (or any other) system - it may just limit your option if you want to go to HDMI video sources (which is pretty much everything these days).

Not really enough info here, but your existing dealer sound like they're in over their head (and trying to get you to just throw more money at it, and the secondary one you contacted sounds like he's just trying make you throw money at him.

I'm not saying either of them are - but from what little you've actually told us so far, neither is giving you a good (or well informed) option, and there are numerous options available - C4 or otherwise.

[Andrew luecke]

18 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

I don’t understand… you think Control4 is going to contact the dealer about it?   

Funny story.. I just noticed there is an equivalent Reddit post and Snap employees have already seemingly engaged OP.. So yes.. Absolutely.

The reasons why are fairly obvious... 

[RAV]

Interesting how many of these style discussions are one and gone.

[therockhr]

2 hours ago, RAV said:

Interesting how many of these style discussions are one and gone.

Not really. The people who do these posts dont really have any interest in how the system works or things like that. They just are wondering if they are missing something or looking for some suggestions on how they can get out of the ditch.

[eggzlot]

13 minutes ago, therockhr said:

Not really. The people who do these posts dont really have any interest in how the system works or things like that. They just are wondering if they are missing something or looking for some suggestions on how they can get out of the ditch.

well by "one and done" I think its meant to say he posted, and never came back to even say "hey thanks for the responses, I have some decent ideas to move forward".  Maybe they are not going to get into the details on shielded vs non shielded cabling, but yeah, I see this on AVSForums too sometimes, people post an issue, and at least do not come back to publicly say "thank you", or "got it" or "that was helpful" or anything.

Same on the reddit thread referenced above, posted the same issue, got some responses, and never returned.

Maybe the OP read the responses and took what they needed and moved on, but yeah it is odd to post, get responses, and not even say "thanks".

[therockhr]

43 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

well by "one and done" I think its meant to say he posted, and never came back to even say "hey thanks for the responses, I have some decent ideas to move forward".  Maybe they are not going to get into the details on shielded vs non shielded cabling, but yeah, I see this on AVSForums too sometimes, people post an issue, and at least do not come back to publicly say "thank you", or "got it" or "that was helpful" or anything.

Same on the reddit thread referenced above, posted the same issue, got some responses, and never returned.

Maybe the OP read the responses and took what they needed and moved on, but yeah it is odd to post, get responses, and not even say "thanks".

I didnt say it wasnt rude. I just said it wasnt interesting. 

[South Africa C4 user]

1 hour ago, therockhr said:

I didnt say it wasnt rude. I just said it wasnt interesting. 

It is rude (and if not rude, then interesting  )

[Neo1738]

Just an fyi I have cat5e and binary moip system working fine. 

[Rob21]

5 minutes ago, Neo1738 said:

Just an fyi I have cat5e and binary moip system working fine. 

I also have cat5e and MOIP with no issues. Some of my runs are over 100 ft. I do not have any 4K sources at the moment tho so I’m not sure if that will cause problems. Do you have any 4K sources? How long are your runs?

[Andrew luecke]

Just now, Rob21 said:

I also have cat5e and MOIP with no issues. Some of my runs are over 100 ft. I do not have any 4K sources at the moment tho so I’m not sure if that will cause problems. Do you have any 4K sources? How long are your runs?

Cat5e supports  even 10gb to to 45m apparently. 2.5gbps will work over 100m of carte easily too apparently

I checked the 900 receiver and the max bandwidth it uses is only 850mbps and uses standard Ethernet, so you shouldn't have a problem. Even if you're using 4k as you're bound by the max bandwidth of the receiver

[Andrew luecke]

https://www.snapav.com/shop/en/snapav/binary-900-series-4k-ultra-hd-media-over-ip-receiver-b-900-moip-4k-rx-a

 

Check specs. Max is 850mbps only, but average is 150mb-300mbps

[Rob21]

15 minutes ago, Andrew luecke said:

Cat5e supports  even 10gb to to 45m apparently. 2.5gbps will work over 100m of carte easily too apparently

I checked the 900 receiver and the max bandwidth it uses is only 850mbps and uses standard Ethernet, so you shouldn't have a problem. Even if you're using 4k as you're bound by the max bandwidth of the receiver

Wow I had no idea thank you for this. So I should be able to get max quality out of my roku ulra or Apple TV if I put them into the moip system. Thank you again!

[Rob21]

Just out of curiosity is there any way of testing video output to see if I’m loosing quality?