OS3.3.1

[chopedogg88]

I'm pretty sure this was already explained earlier in this thread, but the IO Extender is basically just a bunch of simple I/O ports, its not a controller...so I'm not sure why the insistence on comparing the two other than the fact that the IO is still functional in OS 3+?  The IO extender is not a processor, not an audio streamer, no HDMI/video out, just some basic contacts, relays, serial and IR ports.  It can't run your whole house, its not a zigbee server.  The IO Extenders cannot run OS3, but they can exist within an OS 3 system because they are not required to run the OS.

I am a dealer for Control4 and also other competing vendors (Savant, Crestron, etc)...they all have basic, dumb, I/O devices which can be used on newer OS, whereas the host/controller hardware needs to be upgraded to run the latest OS.  This is not a Control4 thing, its typical across this industry and electronics in general.  I can't keep my iPhone or Android from 10 years ago and have it run the latest software.  If I want to run the latest software, I need to decide that its worth it to me and upgrade my phone (which I do every other year or so, because I like technology and like to stay current - my wife on the other hand, could care less as long as she can text and make phone calls).

Nobody is shutting off your HC800 from working - it will continue to work for as long as you want to use it - just like you can keep using your old 10 year old mobile device if you so choose, for what it was designed to do at the time it was released and slightly after.  But I'm sure you aren't expecting apple to allow you to run the latest iOS in some limited fashion on your 10-year old device - that would require them to test everything on that old hardware and make sure that it will be a good, fast experience so that they don't ruin their reputation by having people complain about how slow/insecure/whatever their new software is, because its running on old processing technology.

I know its not a 100% perfect analogy, but its the first that comes to mind, I'm sure there are many other examples of this across a variety of industries and technologies.

[Andrew luecke]

2 hours ago, therockhr said:

Be specific on what hardware in the HC800 controller cant be supported. The original IO extender is older than the HC800 and is still supported.

...

These are valid arguments. I would disagree on how much time and effort it would take to support the controllers once they are downgraded and stuck on a old version but it still work with new controllers. 

 

 

as the question to supporting old hardware I wonder if control4 views themselves more in line with Apple, Samsung, google, etc or Siemens, ABB, Honeywell or Allen Bradley? Or maybe somewhere in between. 

These disagreements are based on assumption though, not experience with the HC800 software stack. They literally said it's a seperate stack they need to maintain (so isn't straightforward). 

Take the time you believe it will take to develop, and multiply it by 5. Something this complex won't take a day, it will take significantly longer.

Don't forget you're still managing an entire OS and migration process which involves more than simply turning off director. It also must be secure too and they need to migrate the old config, remove the old project, etc. And all of this is done using low level code.

And how many major feature improvements are those other companies making to their devices after 10 years? The hue bridge was supported for 8 years, but not much changed with it in that time.

This request basically requires a whole new firmware to be made. It always seems to be a quick job. But 90% of the time it isn't.

3 hours ago, drmark12pa said:

So if C4 is upgrading their controllers, why can't they alphabetize the macros, Voice Scenes, etc.... ?  It seems odd that if everything is such a big change as to EOL a controller, the least that could be done then is allow alphabetizing of some of these items in programming.  I don't think that is asking too much if I'm going to be spending several thousand dollars on a new controller.  I don't think that would be asking too much.  If they do a significant enough revamp that makes something as complex as audio streaming I would think alphabetizing should be something in the capability of the engineers involved.

Every firmware update I'm always waiting to see this fix but for some reason it hasn't materialized.

That's composer related, not firmware (different teams most likely anyway). Have you suggested these changes to Control4? Control 4 often relies on feedback for prioritisation of features and if nobody makes the request, they likely won't work on it.

 

What about all the things they have added though? Such as the ability to add c4z files in bulk, colorwheel, new encryption APIs, mobile web interface support, new voice control, the core series (which also seemed to enable a lot of New things which most drivers aren't even using yet), the eq features on the new core, eq support on audio drivers, the ability to hide buttons on certain proxies, etc. 

In practice, Control4 has improved so quickly in the past year, that driver developers have been struggling to keep up (I've probably personally spent 4-6 months of the past year upgrading drivers to use the new features).

I don't think it's fair to pick a few things and say "what about these". Well, what about the things I've mentioned? 

The new features list I've mentioned affect day to day operation significantly. Shouldn't these be prioritised? 

Huge changes have been made. Whilst it would be great to get everything done, there are limited development resources and limited hours in the day.

[therockhr]

42 minutes ago, chopedogg88 said:

I'm pretty sure this was already explained earlier in this thread, but the IO Extender is basically just a bunch of simple I/O ports, its not a controller...so I'm not sure why the insistence on comparing the two other than the fact that the IO is still functional in OS 3+?  The IO extender is not a processor, not an audio streamer, no HDMI/video out, just some basic contacts, relays, serial and IR ports.  It can't run your whole house, its not a zigbee server.  The IO Extenders cannot run OS3, but they can exist within an OS 3 system because they are not required to run the OS.

I am a dealer for Control4 and also other competing vendors (Savant, Crestron, etc)...they all have basic, dumb, I/O devices which can be used on newer OS, whereas the host/controller hardware needs to be upgraded to run the latest OS.  This is not a Control4 thing, its typical across this industry and electronics in general.  I can't keep my iPhone or Android from 10 years ago and have it run the latest software.  If I want to run the latest software, I need to decide that its worth it to me and upgrade my phone (which I do every other year or so, because I like technology and like to stay current - my wife on the other hand, could care less as long as she can text and make phone calls).

Nobody is shutting off your HC800 from working - it will continue to work for as long as you want to use it - just like you can keep using your old 10 year old mobile device if you so choose, for what it was designed to do at the time it was released and slightly after.  But I'm sure you aren't expecting apple to allow you to run the latest iOS in some limited fashion on your 10-year old device - that would require them to test everything on that old hardware and make sure that it will be a good, fast experience so that they don't ruin their reputation by having people complain about how slow/insecure/whatever their new software is, because its running on old processing technology.

I know its not a 100% perfect analogy, but its the first that comes to mind, I'm sure there are many other examples of this across a variety of industries and technologies.

I believe the IO extender is technically a controller. It runs an OS and controls IO devices. You can do the same for the HC250 and HC800 as well. Have the new OS disable everything but the IO ports so that it is the same as the IO extender and then keep it at that version. The IO extender is at like version 2.10 or something if I remember. I am still interested to know what processor is in the IO extender(v1 and v2).

In the end it doesnt matter. Just talking. Its their right to EOL whatever they want. It also makes sense sometimes to do things that helps out the customers who have spent heavily into the Control4 ecosystem. A dealer could have a customer who doesnt want to pay to move from a HC800 to CORE 5 but they would pay the cost to add a CORE 1/3. The dealer could keep the HC800 controlling all the IO and just add the CORE 1/3. 

I like alot the things Control4 are doing. They have one of the most affordable home automation systems out there (Pro or DIY). Just because I dont like one decision they have made doesnt mean i think they are doing good stuff.

Also, as I have said, I think the HC800 had a good run as being a main controller. 10 years is a good time frame for a home automation controller. I think that should be their aim for every controller; 10 years. That said, I come from an industry where there are controllers (Siemens, Honeywell, Allen Bradley) that are 30 years old or more still running 24/7. Just because in the last 20 years the silicon valley companies make disposable garbage doesnt mean everyone has to.

[msgreenf]

31 minutes ago, therockhr said:

That said, I come from an industry where there are controllers (Siemens, Honeywell, Allen Bradley) that are 30 years old or more still running 24/7. Just because in the last 20 years the silicon valley companies make disposable garbage doesnt mean everyone has to.

But are those systems still getting updates for 30 years? Nothing is preventing an HC 800 from still running. It just can't be updated

[chopedogg88]

In that case, I would recommend just buying a used I/O extender on eBay for $100 or less...maybe that's what Control4 figures people will do if they are in that situation, and therefore its not worth their time/money/hassle to re-work those devices.  But most systems I program, most of the I/O ports are no longer in use because they've long since upgraded their other devices (cable boxes, TVs, etc) to IP-controllable ones.

[msgreenf]

agree the value of IO has decreased based on the # of IP integrations

[therockhr]

22 minutes ago, chopedogg88 said:

In that case, I would recommend just buying a used I/O extender on eBay for $100 or less...maybe that's what Control4 figures people will do if they are in that situation, and therefore its not worth their time/money/hassle to re-work those devices.  But most systems I program, most of the I/O ports are no longer in use because they've long since upgraded their other devices (cable boxes, TVs, etc) to IP-controllable ones.

i believe you are correct. No disagreeing on any of that.

[therockhr]

28 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

But are those systems still getting updates for 30 years? Nothing is preventing an HC 800 from still running. It just can't be updated

Some do some dont. The Honeywell controllers from the 80s still get updates. They almost all though are still able to be used with modern systems without updates. I'm not saying control4 should do that. Im just saying when people throw out these analogies with iphones and computers there is another side as well.

[drmark12pa]

2 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

These disagreements are based on assumption though, not experience with the HC800 software stack. They literally said it's a seperate stack they need to maintain (so isn't straightforward). 

Take the time you believe it will take to develop, and multiply it by 5. Something this complex won't take a day, it will take significantly longer.

Don't forget you're still managing an entire OS and migration process which involves more than simply turning off director. It also must be secure too and they need to migrate the old config, remove the old project, etc. And all of this is done using low level code.

And how many major feature improvements are those other companies making to their devices after 10 years? The hue bridge was supported for 8 years, but not much changed with it in that time.

This request basically requires a whole new firmware to be made. It always seems to be a quick job. But 90% of the time it isn't.

That's composer related, not firmware (different teams most likely anyway). Have you suggested these changes to Control4? Control 4 often relies on feedback for prioritisation of features and if nobody makes the request, they likely won't work on it.

 

What about all the things they have added though? Such as the ability to add c4z files in bulk, colorwheel, new encryption APIs, mobile web interface support, new voice control, the core series (which also seemed to enable a lot of New things which most drivers aren't even using yet), the eq features on the new core, eq support on audio drivers, the ability to hide buttons on certain proxies, etc. 

In practice, Control4 has improved so quickly in the past year, that driver developers have been struggling to keep up (I've probably personally spent 4-6 months of the past year upgrading drivers to use the new features).

I don't think it's fair to pick a few things and say "what about these". Well, what about the things I've mentioned? 

The new features list I've mentioned affect day to day operation significantly. Shouldn't these be prioritised? 

Huge changes have been made. Whilst it would be great to get everything done, there are limited development resources and limited hours in the day.

I think it's more than fair to ask for basic things such as alphabetizing which should have been implemented years ago.  Any user who is using programming will be utilizing these features, not every user has color lighting or knows anything about proxies, etc. Going through a list of macros and Voice Commands in Composer that is completely random seems very dated.  If the new OS is not able to support old code/hardware to run equipment then the new code/hardware should be able to address this code change as well.  I personally have no interest in the items you mentioned but would readily welcome better organization in Composer.  Right now, Composer seems a bit behind the times when you can't even organize certain lists in Composer to find what you need without scrolling through an entire list. 

Yes I have emailed Control4 about this previously.

[SpencerT]

3 hours ago, therockhr said:

That said, I come from an industry where there are controllers (Siemens, Honeywell, Allen Bradley) that are 30 years old or more still running 24/7. Just because in the last 20 years the silicon valley companies make disposable garbage doesnt mean everyone has to.

I come from an industry that uses systems from the same companies you mention. I'm not sure about your situation, but my annual M&S costs to any of those companies is significantly more than what I pay in annual support to SNAP/Control4.

[therockhr]

5 minutes ago, SpencerT said:

I come from an industry that uses systems from the same companies you mention. I'm not sure about your situation, but my annual M&S costs to any of those companies is significantly more than what I pay in annual support to SNAP/Control4.

Unless it’s Honeywell you aren’t paying m&s to Siemens or Rockwell (Allen Bradley) directly. You are going through a distributor just like you do with Control4 (you don’t pay Snap/Control4 directly either). You also don’t have to have m&s either for the products to still work. You may have to pay for an upgrade but you don’t have to keep paying every year. 

[SpencerT]

6 minutes ago, therockhr said:

Unless it’s Honeywell you aren’t paying m&s to Siemens or Rockwell (Allen Bradley) directly. You are going through a distributor just like you do with Control4 (you don’t pay Snap/Control4 directly either). You also don’t have to have m&s either for the products to still work. You may have to pay for an upgrade but you don’t have to keep paying every year. 

Thank you for making my point for me. 

[therockhr]

5 minutes ago, SpencerT said:

Thank you for making my point for me. 

What’s your point?

[Topspin14m]

No point to any of this.  Consumer electronics aren’t the same as commercial.  Control4 made its decision which is in line with what every other consumer electronics company is doing.  Could they support it?  Sure they could.  We put a man on the moon.  Do they want to?  No.  Why?  See all the reasons above. 

[C4 User]

13 hours ago, therockhr said:

Technical wise, it can be done.

You have no idea what you are talking about with this statement.

[C4 User]

9 hours ago, therockhr said:

Some do some dont. The Honeywell controllers from the 80s still get updates. They almost all though are still able to be used with modern systems without updates. I'm not saying control4 should do that. Im just saying when people throw out these analogies with iphones and computers there is another side as well.

 

10 hours ago, therockhr said:

That said, I come from an industry where there are controllers (Siemens, Honeywell, Allen Bradley) that are 30 years old or more still running 24/7. Just because in the last 20 years the silicon valley companies make disposable garbage doesnt mean everyone has to.

Current industrial systems incorporating the latest in robotics, ai, and smart servos can not run with Siemens or AB controllers from 10 years ago let along 30 years ago. And controllers that are 10 years old can’t run anything beyond Windows 7 (now EOL). Sure, the controllers themselves still run and the equipment as originally designed and built 10 years ago may run for another 20 years, but that same system can not be upgraded with current servo or robotic technology without also upgrading the controller. And that same controller cannot be upgraded with windows security features beyond Windows 7. Users should not expect to be able to upgrade software on EOL controllers. Nor should they expect an EOL controller to necessarily integrate with all current devices.

[Amr]

This just shows the love people have for the HC800, incredible piece of hardware evolved throughout the years to provide what we have today, kudos for C4 for producing such device and we look forward for more

[therockhr]

8 hours ago, C4 User said:

 

Current industrial systems incorporating the latest in robotics, ai, and smart servos can not run with Siemens or AB controllers from 10 years ago let along 30 years ago. And controllers that are 10 years old can’t run anything beyond Windows 7 (now EOL). Sure, the controllers themselves still run and the equipment as originally designed and built 10 years ago may run for another 20 years, but that same system can not be upgraded with current servo or robotic technology without also upgrading the controller. And that same controller cannot be upgraded with windows security features beyond Windows 7. Users should not expect to be able to upgrade software on EOL controllers. Nor should they expect an EOL controller to necessarily integrate with all current devices.

That’s the point I’m trying to make; if they turned the HC line into just dumb devices they wouldn’t need to provide updates or support. It would just run and control IO like IO extenders or really like an old Siemens PLC does. Do you think they are providing updates for the IO extender?

If you were adding a new line to an existing plant you wouldn’t add a new Siemens 505 PLC as the backend to a new PCS. You would add the latest S7 PLC but you also wouldn’t scrap the existing 505’s. You would keep those and integrate them into the new Siemens PCS.

I hate analogies because every industry is different but I do get tired of always just hearing about Apple where it is common to update every 3-4 years. And to repeat myself again, the hc800 has had a long life as the main controller. I just don’t see why it has to end up in the trash heap when with a little work they could make it a dumb device that they wouldn’t have to keep updating. 

[therockhr]

8 hours ago, C4 User said:

You have no idea what you are talking about with this statement.

Really? You don’t think the employees at Control4 could turn the HC line into dumb IO devices? Well unlike you, I believe they have enough talented people to do that. 

[therockhr]

2 hours ago, Amr said:

This just shows the love people have for the HC800, incredible piece of hardware evolved throughout the years to provide what we have today, kudos for C4 for producing such device and we look forward for more

I’m just glad this isn’t the only place to get c4 info anymore. And yeah, the HC line was very good. 

[therockhr]

just to be transparent though, industrial control systems have also known to kill of products as well. I remember years ago when siemens bought Moore controls and at their user conference gave some presentation where they were going to "merge" the moore apacs system into siemens pcs. well that "merge" was to replace everything with siemens hardware. people were ready to riot.

look, i get the reasons for them to EOL the HC line. they are past due to stop being a main controller (i wouldnt have put the HC800 on 3.3). my only point was that i thought it made sense to repurpose those controllers as dumb IO only devices. for one, it is a way to keep users in the control4 ecosystem. if someone has an HC800 and it needs replaced then they might be thinking its time to look at Savant, Crestron, etc. If a dealer could keep that HC800 in there and just add a CORE 1 on top then they can keep them locked in. But as someone said earlier, it is probably just as easy to pay 100 bucks for a used IO extender and get rid of the HC800.

and i dont even have a HC800. I have an EA-1 and IO extender. The IO extender is only controlling 1 TV and alarm panel via serial and 3 garage doors. used to control 3 TV's. so it is getting less and less use.

[prabeau]

I am an HC800 system owner.

I like to chase the new technology as much as the next guy. However being a "senior" and on a pension one has to limit the chase. When the EA5 came out I was so tempted but I saw an opportunity, a cheap one; to buy a used HC800 as a backup.

Started to realize that the EA5 would not add much to my project except to eliminate some audio work arounds.

Now the new controllers are out and here I am thinking I might get a good buy on that EA5. Then saying to self what for just so I can say I have a newish controller !

I write this just to add to the conversation as an owner that might represent an unknown portion of the Control 4 owners. This forum has been a great source of information to me but is quickly moving out of my league as it should.  Cheers

 

 

[wnpublic]

19 hours ago, drmark12pa said:

I think it's more than fair to ask for basic things such as alphabetizing which should have been implemented years ago.  Any user who is using programming will be utilizing these features, not every user has color lighting or knows anything about proxies, etc. Going through a list of macros and Voice Commands in Composer that is completely random seems very dated.  If the new OS is not able to support old code/hardware to run equipment then the new code/hardware should be able to address this code change as well.  I personally have no interest in the items you mentioned but would readily welcome better organization in Composer.  Right now, Composer seems a bit behind the times when you can't even organize certain lists in Composer to find what you need without scrolling through an entire list. 

Yes I have emailed Control4 about this previously.

Yes, it is super lame that there is no better way to find what’s been programmed for your own house.  In general, it’s crazy that they continue to evolve the hardware side but composer is basically windows 98. 

[C4 User]

3 hours ago, Amr said:

This just shows the love people have for the HC800, incredible piece of hardware evolved throughout the years to provide what we have today, kudos for C4 for producing such device and we look forward for more

14 years ago, I had the HC1000 which I paid a ton for at the time. The HC800 blew it away when it came out, followed by the EA5 and now the CORE. HA technology and equipment have evolved to a whole new world over the past 14 years and the C4 organization, hardware and software has evolved from essentially a startup. While I do expect device EOL will always be a risk in technology, my guess is we will begin to see longer equipment life as C4 continues to mature. At the same time, I expect we will see an acceleration in system capabilities that will require equipment updates if we as users chose to adopt. That said, there is a price to be paid if you want to keep any product platform up to date on latest technology - whether that is the latest cell phone, latest smart watch, latest car, latest tv, or you name it. Heck, I now have to pay an annual fee to keep features in my car up to date.

[therockhr]

38 minutes ago, C4 User said:

14 years ago, I had the HC1000 which I paid a ton for at the time. The HC800 blew it away when it came out, followed by the EA5 and now the CORE. HA technology and equipment have evolved to a whole new world over the past 14 years and the C4 organization, hardware and software has evolved from essentially a startup.

This is something I would kind of like to start a new thread on but I wonder what you all think the biggest thing that has happened in the past 14 years for HA?

For me its easy; the introduction of the smartphone. Streaming audio is probably 2nd but by a wide margin to the smartphone. The smartphone gave way to better and more standard UI's than the previous "roll your own" custom UI's that were built for every project and were only accessible on custom touchscreens.

Control4 really made a name for itself when it was able to roll out a smartphone app better than the rest because they didnt rely on the custom UIs that others had. Their proxy design was ahead of its time. This gave them a huge advantage that others have now finally been able to equal (not top). I know that HA controllers are doing some more advanced integrations than they used to but in a way they are still doing the same thing they were 14-15 years ago. Still turning on/off TV's and AV equipment (streaming audio control is newish though), controlling lights/alarms/thermostats/relays/sensors. This was being done back then as well and probably with the same technology for the most part (definitely more 2 way integrations and feedback than there was back then). Yes I know I am over simplifying it but being able to pull out your smartphone and control your HA system from anywhere has been the biggest evolution of HA by far.