WiFi 5 Issues and Dreams of WiFi 6 (or 6e) - Time to Upgrade?

[anon2828]

Having WiFi connectivity issues thoughts and dreams of upgrading the home network...

CURRENTLY:  Araknis 300 Router > Araknis 210 POE Gigabit Switches (2) > Araknis 700 Series WAPs

There are currently 6 WAPs in an approximately 4000sq/ft + residence - 2 downstairs on opposite sides of house, 2 upstairs on opposite sides of house, 1 garage, 1 outdoor (Araknis 700 Series Outdoor Series - outdoor connectivity with this is miserable).

WiFi throughput was previously with prior ISP (200Mbps internet connection) was near 100-200Mbps download per wireless device while upload was asymmetrical at 20Mbps up - ugh - per wireless device.

WiFi throughput with new ISP (Frontier fiber 1GB internet connection) is approximately 250-300Mbps download per wireless device, and 300-400Mbps upload per wireless device (strange that up is always faster than down).

Major connectivity issues have popped up after switching ISPs.  I can measure speed at the ONT (headend of the fiber connection with a wired CAT6 connection) and get the advertised 900+Mbps.  Wireless clients as mentioned top out at around 300Mbps which I think is expected given my current WiFi 5 hardware.

THE CRAZY ISSUE is that multiple times during the day we see download and upload speeds of only 50-75Mbps per wireless device (or less).  ONT and full network reboots (router, switches, and WAPs) do nothing for speed.  Then magically it will come back to the expected 250-300Mbps download per wireless client.

QUESTIONS:

1. What could be going wrong?
2. Can wireless hardware just go bad?  This equipment is approximately 4-5 yrs old.  Anyone ever see this with Araknis before?
3. Do I need to upgrade the hardware to alleviate these issues?
4. What hardware is recommended (I think the general consensus is Araknis stinks, and Rukus is great, and Ubiquiti is somewhere in the middle)?
5. Given that SnapAV is now selling Eero and there is a POE version of the Eero 6 would that be a consideration?  Does Eero's mesh networking provide any distinct (or easier) benefit over those brands in #3 above?
6. If upgrading to #4 or #5 do I need so many WAPs?
7. Would anyone wait for or opt for 6E at this time?

Any help and advice appreciated!

[cwilmo]

The router is one limiting factor - the Araknis 300 (AN-300-RT-4L2W) is certainly the little router that could but is now quite outdated, I believe the WAN > LAN tops out at around 500mbps; it has been replaced by the AN-310-RT-4L2W for gigabit applications but performance seems lackluster, the interface is poor and the updates infrequent.  I also personally had some hard to solve network issues with Araknis routers.   I would recommend an alternate router - there are many fine alternatives and I'm sure you will receive many recommendations.  The current sweet spot is gigabit but 2.5gb is just around the corner. I have had pfSense Netgate SG-4860, Ubiquiti ER-4, Ubiquiti UDM Pro, both mentioned Araknis routers and others but personally believe the sweet spot to be with Mikrotik from a cost/performance perspective as well as playing nice with Control4 (and other gear), being well documented and kept up to date and not having yearly licensing requirements. I can recommend the RB4011 for up to gigabit routing and it also sports excellent SQM which I believe is essential for a good experience. I have the newer RB5009 as well and it is more performant but seems to be a little more prone to problems over long periods which the RB4011 is not (for me).  There are some others/dealers on the forum like cyknight who I believe also use these.

 

The WAPs are perhaps the other limiting factor. I also have many access points and a large area, I have had a lot of time to test many different scenarios and settings.  For Ubiquiti I believe the current sweet spot to be the U6-LR which covers a surprising large area if well situated.  The cheaper alternative is the U6-Lite or nanos.  I have heard good things about the Engenius ECW220S, TPLINK EAP650 and Ruckus gear.  With Unifi you get a good performer for a great price - it made a noticeable difference in my home to upgrade a central WAP to the U6-LR (we also generally keep our phones and devices up to date and the change is noticeable).  I've personally wanted to compare it to Ruckus like the R550/650/750 but found it impossible to get hold of or poorly priced.  I get the impression that the Ruckus gets you great performance but at a steep price increase.  I believe Ruckus Unleashed may get the way to go if cost vs time matters - the Ruckus likely will *just work* with better vetted firmware updates.

[ekohn00]

12 hours ago, anon2828 said:

THE CRAZY ISSUE is that multiple times during the day we see download and upload speeds of only 50-75Mbps per wireless device (or less).  ONT and full network reboots (router, switches, and WAPs) do nothing for speed.  Then magically it will come back to the expected 250-300Mbps download per wireless client.

Before you go supper nuts, check if it's your ISP. Does it happen about the same time? how long does it last? Are you using the ISP DNS or something like 1.1.1.1 or 8.8.8.8? Can you do a speed test  from the router out to the internet and see the same (so you know its not your home network)?

 

 

[anon2828]

10 hours ago, cwilmo said:

The router is one limiting factor - the Araknis 300 (AN-300-RT-4L2W) is certainly the little router that could but is now quite outdated, I believe the WAN > LAN tops out at around 500mbps;

cwilmo - this is great information and appreciated.  I never realized that YES you are correct that the Araknis 300 Router could be a bottleneck as the WAN to LAN interface spec is "WAN - LAN Throughput: 492Mbps" - BUT that does not explain how I am getting wired speeds in excess of 492Mbps - for example, we have a Xbox that is hardwired via Cat6 back to the Switch > Router > ISP (1Gbps) and when games are downloaded I am seeing 500-700Mbps download speeds - so how is that happening?

Your hardware recommendations are appreciated as well.

Still trying to determine why we drop to 50-75Mbps per wireless device (or less) multiple times per day and I don't think it is related to time of day.  I am going to attempt to check the speed directly via wired connection at the ONT when I see the wireless speed decrease.  If I am getting full speed at the ONT during these slowdowns, then of course it is Router, Switches, WAPs.  Just difficult to time running to the garage and hooking up a laptop to the ONT when WiFi speed issues happen.

Anyone have any experience with Eero versus some of the suggestions so far (especially anyone that has tested the PoE version available through Snap) - seems like Eero could be in the camp of "just works".

[ekohn00]

17 minutes ago, anon2828 said:

 If I am getting full speed at the ONT during these slowdowns, then of course it is Router, Switches, WAPs.  Just difficult to time running to the garage and hooking up a laptop to the ONT when WiFi speed issues happen.

 

If the ONT direct to laptop still give lightning speed...it's probably your router. Smaller routers tend to crap out with higher network speeds, they just can't handle the PPS rates especially if doing NAT on top of other security functions.

As @anon2828said, since the wan to lan spec on that router is less than 500mbps, you should upgrade to one that can handle the 1GB ISP connection. there's no way to fix and  undersized firewall other than rip and replace.

ps.... It's typical for upload to be faster since you're not doing as much security checks/functions outbound.

[cnicholson]

I suspect what is happening is that your devices are periodically switching to 2.4GHz bands from 5GHz bands (and sticking there) and that the speed delta was not noticeable before-- whereas you now MUST be on 5GHz to experience your newer, faster speeds.   You might try forcing your fast clients onto 5GHz (using some band steering or a separate SSID set to 5GHz only).   You'll still want a 2.4GHz network for coverage, but this might improve your typical speeds.

If you go down this path, you'll need to keep in mind that the "full speed" range of 5GHz is very limited (on the order of ~25 feet), which implies a LOT of WAPs if you are really really dedicated to maximum speeds everywhere.  Also be sure to set 80MHz channel widths for max speed, as long as you don't have a lot of interference in your environment (assuming you don't have any 160MHz capable mobile devices).  In "noisy" environments, sometimes wide channels can be counter productive.  Just have to experiment.

So, bottom line, going to WiFi6 will, indeed get you up to 900mbps to your end clients (expect ~500mbps as more typical when in the same room as a WAP, but not standing right in front of it), but you may need to also add WAPs.   I wouldn't worry about 6E just yet, but perhaps the premium to "future proof" is worth it to you.

 

[anon2828]

Anyone in a C4 environment bypassing the professional gear (Araknis, Rukus / Access Networks / Ubiquiti) and using Eero? I'd love to hear some feedback on that.

[womble123]

I have just upgraded two UniFi HDNano's with two UniFi WiFi 6 Pro and have been flawless so far. Swapping them over took about 2 min as I just had to click adopt in the UniFi Network for each one and that's it!

I couldn't get them on the UniFi store but Amazon had them at the same price.

[DLite]

42 minutes ago, womble123 said:

I have just upgraded two UniFi HDNano's with two UniFi WiFi 6 Pro and have been flawless so far. Swapping them over took about 2 min as I just had to click adopt in the UniFi Network for each one and that's it!

I couldn't get them on the UniFi store but Amazon had them at the same price.

Do you need a UDM-Pro in order to adopt the Unifi6 Pro's?  I am using a USG router and am wondering if that precludes switching.  I saw something in the product documentation about the need for a UDM-Pro, but it wasn't super clear to me.

[cwilmo]

@DLiteNo, you don't specifically need a UDM-Pro; you just need a Controller - the simplest is probably just the cloud key; but you could also host it on a local computer or in the cloud.  Unfortunately the USG does not include a controller.  I would not recommend the original Unifi Cloud key (Gen1) but the newer Cloud Key Gen2 is solid.  Get the Gen2 Plus if you also are interested in running apps other than Network such as Protect, Talk or Access.  Other devices with controller included are : UDM, UDR and UDM-SE.

[cwilmo]

@anon2828: I wanted to mention some tools you can use to better characterize your network issue (before you just swap pieces out) - as a general tool I recommend PingPlotter - pick a reliable domain on the wider web and leave it graphing, ideally running on a hardwired device - when you get performance issues take a look at the time frames in the graph to see if there are changes in the various hops to better pinpoint the problem.  You can also use this within your network similarly to keep an eye on devices.  

For bandwidth checking I like iPerf for LAN to LAN and Waveform Bufferbloat for WAN testing (or Speedtest.com, Fast.com, Speedof.me etc).  Many routers have excellent speed and bandwidth testers built it - on the Mikrotik for instance there is bTest which can test to public servers.  I also sometimes look at the Speedtest results which are graphed by the OVRC controller now built in to your Control EA controller (mine seem to run about every 7 hours but you can also run on demand).  Keep in mind some test results can be limited by the device they run on.  For OVRC on my EA it seems to have no problem graphing my 500/500 connection but I don't know about gig.

[Andrew luecke]

6 hours ago, anon2828 said:

Anyone in a C4 environment bypassing the professional gear (Araknis, Rukus / Access Networks / Ubiquiti) and using Eero? I'd love to hear some feedback on that.

Please don't use a mesh network. Do it properly the first time

There are lots of reasons. 

1. Instead of reinforcing the reliability of the wifi network, you're adding points of failure, and more interference by not using wired uplinks. Things get worse as you progress down the chain. Mesh is a awesome failover option though, which is why enterprise AP's generally include it. 
2. Troubleshooting network issues. It becomes very difficult. Ethernet is fairly predictable, but in a home environment, wifi is not. WiFi 7 will be significantly better and do things like help guarantee latency, but, this is still ages away
3. Latency. Sometimes you can turn a good connection into a inconsistent crappy connection simply by putting something in the way of the wireless uplink.  
4. Some mesh networks also cause issues with some protocols and discovery protocols. In fact, I had one installer get angry at me for one of our drivers once because auto-discovery didn't work on their Mesh AP's, and I don't think they even had a dedicated router or switch either  (and, I needed to get additional advice from another installer about the limitations of those AP's and configuration required which delayed our support. I was 99.999% sure it was the AP's themselves or a setting on them).  
5. Some also default to creating their own NAT network, instead of bridging from the main one causing further issues with routing. That's great for your typical email/facebook user. Not for your typical Home automation user. 
6. Long term maintenance. Many brands can't mesh in between different generations and sometimes, if you have a faulty AP, you need to upgrade them all..  

Ubiquiti isn't really considered professional gear (it's considered business grade, but is still a DIY product). It's better to use the "do one thing, and do it well" approach, unless you're going high end like Ruckus (which uses Mesh for backup). Ie.. Dedicated router, dedicated switch, and dedicated AP's.  

Also, keep in mind, I found the WIFI built into a lot of wireless routers (including the Ubiquiti UDM) often has its own issues too (particularly with roaming)

[cwilmo]

1 minute ago, Andrew luecke said:

Dedicated router, dedicated switch, and dedicated AP's.  

This is the way.

[anon2828]

16 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

Please don't use a mesh network. Do it properly the first time

I think your advice is good.

That said, I was really only referring to the Eero PoE (eero PoE 6 - see https://www.eero.com/pro-installers) - not the regular Eero devices.

From Eero re the eero PoE 6 : "When the units are wired, the network does not need to rely on wireless signals to communicate between the eero access points." - so this would seem more like Rukus where it uses wired, but falls back to Mesh when necessary...

Re: "Dedicated router, dedicated switch, and dedicated AP's." - YES - AGREE!

I was thinking Dedicated Router (currently have but perhaps upgrade - need suggestions here too - new Araknis 310 or other)--> dedicated PoE switches (currently have) --> Dedicated WAPs (was just considering if the eero PoE 6 would be a fit)

[msgreenf]

The Poe eero looks awesome. But haven't tried it yet. 

[anon2828]

On 10/12/2022 at 2:58 PM, msgreenf said:

The Poe eero looks awesome. But haven't tried it yet. 

Would you use a dedicated Router, or rely on the one built into the Eero?

For example just ISP --> Eero (at the rack) --> PoE Switch --> other PoE Eero units 

OR

ISP --> Dedicated Router --> PoE Switch --> PoE Eero units

Eero tech doc says that you lose some of Eero's management functionality if you don't use their built in router functions, but they can be put in bridge mode...

[lippavisual]

Not much functionality when using Eero as the router.  It lacks a lot of todays standard tools and some other things aren't allowed.

My vote would be dedicated router for your use case.  Do not rely on the mesh networking and hardwire each eero and you should be fine.

[anon2828]

2 hours ago, lippavisual said:

Not much functionality when using Eero as the router.  It lacks a lot of todays standard tools and some other things aren't allowed.

My vote would be dedicated router for your use case.  Do not rely on the mesh networking and hardwire each eero and you should be fine.

Best dedicated router brand / model?  Currently have Araknis 300, would consider upgrade to Araknis 310.  Araknis interface is miserable and firmware updates seem few and far between.

[OceanDad]

4 hours ago, anon2828 said:

Best dedicated router brand / model?  Currently have Araknis 300, would consider upgrade to Araknis 310.  

The upgrade from 300 to 310 was definitely worth it for me.  Everything seems a lot more solid now.  If you want gig speeds up and down, be sure to follow the recommendation to utilize the LAN4 port.

[Topspin14m]

I use Netgear Orbi Wifi 6 units.  No problems with C4.  The people who say not to use a mesh network are assuming you are wirelessly connecting them, but, of course, you can set them up with a wired backhaul.  Same thing with eeros.  Biggest issue is dealers don't like this stuff because they can't really remote control it the same way as they can with more pro level gear.  If you want your dealer to support you in the best way, don't get consumer gear. If you can self correct your network issues, I think it's generally okay. 

[Cyknight]

11 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

The people who say not to use a mesh network are assuming you are wirelessly connecting them

Which is what a mesh network IS - if you use them as APs, then there indeed should not be a problem as such BUT one should keep in mind that if for whatever reason the hard-wire connection is lost, and then returned, some of these devices can cause weird loops at that point.

I've seen this with numerous options (including ubiquiti, eero and google) - it's rare and shouldn't been seen as a don't use them reason, just something to remember if you all of a sudden see your network going down.

 

14 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

don't like this stuff because they can't really remote control it

Well... remotely service it, which is generally also cheaper for the client. But yes if you fully own and maintain your network, that advantage becomes limited if not void.

[Cyknight]

3 hours ago, OceanDad said:

The upgrade from 300 to 310 was definitely worth it for me

The 300 was ok but barely so -  the 310 is a perfectly good router. I'd even say the x00 series was a bit weak, but they've taken the good from it and improved it greatly with the x10 series. x20 will bring in more one would assume (so far only the 820 has shown up, but I assume there will be more coming down the line).

[Andrew luecke]

4 hours ago, Topspin14m said:

I use Netgear Orbi Wifi 6 units.  No problems with C4.  The people who say not to use a mesh network are assuming you are wirelessly connecting them, but, of course, you can set them up with a wired backhaul.  Same thing with eeros.  Biggest issue is dealers don't like this stuff because they can't really remote control it the same way as they can with more pro level gear.  If you want your dealer to support you in the best way, don't get consumer gear. If you can self correct your network issues, I think it's generally okay. 

I disagree. I literally just spent half of last week troubleshooting an issue with someones LIFX system I now believe is due to an orbi bug and there are lots of reports. Lifx A19 and BR30s were not able to pass data properly it seemed and judging by reports, Orbi related

There are plenty of other DIY systems. That being said, Netgear have definitely stepped up their quality in the last few years (and kudos to them).

 

[RAV]

One of the biggest issues with Eero, you can only have 1 SSID besides guest.
No separation for IOT, no localized ability to keep items from hopping APs, no dedicated 2.4 for older stuff (like pools and grills) that just wont connect or stay connected.

If you only need it for surfing, you're likely OK. But start putting IOT stuff on it, then it can be a challenge.

[lippavisual]

On 10/14/2022 at 12:36 PM, anon2828 said:

Best dedicated router brand / model?  Currently have Araknis 300, would consider upgrade to Araknis 310.  Araknis interface is miserable and firmware updates seem few and far between.

I'm a Mikrotik guy.