Recommendation for Network Equipment

[ChrisX0X]

Hi folks

Im in the last stages of my residential construction, and I was just about to place an order for networking equipment but my integrator called me and said I take no responsibility for your system to work with Ubiquiti hardware, and you cannot blame me if anything goes wrong.

Now, obviously my integrator wants to sell me his own expensive stuff, but as he is taking no responsibility if something goes wrong, I am now having 2nd thoughts. (And to add I am also worried that if something else goes wrong with the integration, he might use the Ubiquiti as a scapegoat).

I will be using an EA3 system, with approximately 30 lan ports around the house and 15 devices on POE.

My plan was to purchase:
5x Unifi NanoHD

1x UniFi Security Gateway

1x UniFi Switch 24 PoE Gen2 

1x UniFi Switch 48 Non-PoE 

1x UniFi Cloud Key Gen2

 

What are your thoughts on the above? Would you recommend something else instead of any of the above equipment? Ideally I want to remain within the same price range as the above.

Thanks

Chris

[ryflyy]

I personally use Luxul on all of my jobs with great success. I’m not the biggest fan of there AP’s, So I try to push Ruckus. Ubquiti is good too but the problem is they don’t have tech support and the dealer may not be familiar with it. I think the best network gear is the gear that the dealer is most comfortable and knowledgeable with.

[eggzlot]

From your dealers perspective he is just being honest.  If he doesn’t work with Brand X why would he guarantee support? He would have a lot of time to learn a new system.  Most dealers have 1-2 preferred systems so they can roll it out quickly and smoothly and they know it works.   They do not want calls with network issues especially hardware they don’t know well.  Larger dealers may have a help desk and they only are trained in 1-2 systems not every system possible  

it would be like if I purchased tires online and asked my local garage to install them but then replace them if they pop.  They didn’t sell me the tires so they won’t service/warranty it - they will tell me to go to the online shop where I purchased it   

that said many people run ubiquiti even though some of its components may be on the do not use list.  

what is your level of technical expertise?  The most important piece of Control4 is the stability of the network

 I have a mikrotik router, Cisco switches and Unifi APs.  I think unifi switches or routers have caused some issues in the past. 

[ejn1]

I would find a C4 dealer comfortable with Ubiquiti versus opposite.   There are plenty out there.  The money and fees you will save will likely make It more than worth while.   I’ve ran Ubiquiti for a awhile with no C4 issues.   The only knock on Ubiquiti is they release a lot of new products and sometimes too early.   If you stay away from always changing and tempted by there endless product development pipeline and let others beta for them then you should be very stable.

[THE L1ZARD KING]

I am currently on a full Ubiquiti setup. I am not advocating for or against any other brands, but simply offer it as a data point that it has been running a year without any issues. I should also note that anything that is C4 integrated is using a cabled connection.

Gear List:
- Secure Gateway (USG)
- US-8-60W Switch x3
- AC-PRO WAP x2
- Cloud Key v2

[ekohn00]

I've been running C4 & Unifi gear for many many years - no compatibility issues at all. Currently have about 7 switches and 7 WAP spread around the house and pool area.

I will caveat, that I do over complicate with VLANs - no limits to any multicast C4 may need across the network.

You didn't mention your internet access, but you might want to consider the newer UDM-PRO in place of the cloud key and USG, especial for higher speed access (1G).

 

[WholeHomeControl]

Please understand that a successful Control4 implementation is highly dependent on the network, and as such many Control4 dealers will not take on a project unless they have full ownership over the network infrastructure. 

It seems you are headed in a direction where your dealer will not own the network. I hope you have given consideration to the implications of this. It’s not just a matter of finger pointing. Your dealer will truly be at a disadvantage when it comes to ensuring that the C4 system can run reliably, be effectively supported, and otherwise meet your overall expectations. 

I highly encourage you not to proceed unless and until you and your C4 dealer are on the same page with respect to the network design/configuration/operation. 

[Elvis]

18 hours ago, ChrisX0X said:

Hi folks

Im in the last stages of my residential construction, and I was just about to place an order for networking equipment but my integrator called me and said I take no responsibility for your system to work with Ubiquiti hardware, and you cannot blame me if anything goes wrong.

Now, obviously my integrator wants to sell me his own expensive stuff, but as he is taking no responsibility if something goes wrong, I am now having 2nd thoughts. (And to add I am also worried that if something else goes wrong with the integration, he might use the Ubiquiti as a scapegoat).

I will be using an EA3 system, with approximately 30 lan ports around the house and 15 devices on POE.

My plan was to purchase:
5x Unifi NanoHD

1x UniFi Security Gateway

1x UniFi Switch 24 PoE Gen2 

1x UniFi Switch 48 Non-PoE 

1x UniFi Cloud Key Gen2

 

What are your thoughts on the above? Would you recommend something else instead of any of the above equipment? Ideally I want to remain within the same price range as the above.

Thanks

Chris

I have been down this road. Having a responsive, local dealer that you can deal with face-to-face can be a great thing. You need to weigh the cost of the equipment he is offering vs. the cost of UniFi and cost of managing the UniFi if you are not going to do it yourself. Then you need to put a value on eliminating the network as an excuse for C4 troubles.

I went from Apple > Luxul > UniFi and I am still running UniFi. When I had issues, I got no support for network troubleshooting from my dealer. If I had it to do over again, I would have written the check. But who knows if it would have really solved the audio issues I had. Instead I turned to remote dealers here and educated myself. The end result was I spent a lot more money and a hell of a lot more of my own time than the cost of Pakedge and letting my local dealer install it all.

It is interesting to note that when I started, Luxul was the C4 choice. Now it is Pakedge. I'd hope they've got it right by now.

And don't be afraid to question his pricing. If he is selling it to you at MSRP then he should be including a lot of extra time for setup if not full install. My opinion. Dealers might disagree. You can probably get it for 15-20% off MSRP from a dealer here.

Good luck and congrats on the new house.

[lippavisual]

Just an FYI, there is literally zero to 1% markup on Ubiquiti products.  IMO, you’ll have a really hard time finding someone to sell it to you less than what they paid for it. 

[cdepaola]

Also been running Unifi gear for YEARS!  This system through all iterations has been rock solid and C4 issues have never been a fault of the network.

Dealers don't like unifi because dealer cost is for all intent and purpose MSRP, dealers want equipment they can make a minimum of 20% on and more realistically in the 50% range.  Some dealers here will attempt to make unifi seems like DIY but this couldn't be further from the truth... Yes some non professionals use unifi, because its easy and relatively inexpensive however many a small to medium size IT companies sell, install and maintain Unifi systems in critical infrastructure.. Example my medium size municipality and fire department all use Unifi gear for a large and robust network, it was installed professionally and is maintained by same said professionals.  

Current Gear List includes (4000sqft home)

DreamMachine Pro

24 port POE

2 - Nano HD

1 - InWall Pro

1 - UAP-Outdoor 

[ejn1]

13 hours ago, WholeHomeControl said:

Please understand that a successful Control4 implementation is highly dependent on the network, and as such many Control4 dealers will not take on a project unless they have full ownership over the network infrastructure.

Interesting point but this has not been what I have seen.   Almost every one of my friends / colleagues that've had a C4 system installed have already had a network in place (from basic to average setups) and not one of them had a dealer refuse the business because they didnt install the network.   That doesn't mean they don't try to quote them on a better network setup but none have walked away from the business that I've seen.   That must be the exception vs the rule.

Personally, I think there is a lot of angst generated around Ubiquiti gear (eg not on approved C4 list) because of their disruptive pricing model and willingness to sell direct to the consumer.   I'm not knocking Pakedge (seems like cool stuff but at a price point not justified for me) or other brands but this Ubiquiti not on approved list is a lot of unjustified fear mongering in my opinion.  

 

[mstafford388]

10 hours ago, ejn1 said:

Interesting point but this has not been what I have seen.   Almost every one of my friends / colleagues that've had a C4 system installed have already had a network in place (from basic to average setups) and not one of them had a dealer refuse the business because they didnt install the network.   That doesn't mean they don't try to quote them on a better network setup but none have walked away from the business that I've seen.   That must be the exception vs the rule.

Personally, I think there is a lot of angst generated around Ubiquiti gear (eg not on approved C4 list) because of their disruptive pricing model and willingness to sell direct to the consumer.   I'm not knocking Pakedge (seems like cool stuff but at a price point not justified for me) or other brands but this Ubiquiti not on approved list is a lot of unjustified fear mongering in my opinion.  

 

Ubiquiti is on the not approved list mostly because it will cause issues with certain C4 functions if left with some of it's default configuration.  Doesn't mean it can't be configured to run a killer C4 system, just that dealers can't "plug and play" which unfortunately is all some dealers can do.  Not really fear mongering, just an attempt to protect the less network savvy dealers.  Whether that's a justifiable decision is a different story.   

[ekohn00]

1 hour ago, mstafford388 said:

Ubiquiti is on the not approved list mostly because it will cause issues with certain C4 functions if left with some of it's default configuration. 

YEH, NO!   I'm running a large Unifi and large C4 install....  All default. (no VLANS, one network/subnet)

I've heard, but haven't seen 100%, that C4 has multicast/broadcast capabilities and some implementations of VLANs break them.

I don't think I've ever seen someone with a UNIFI switch & WAP that was "basic" settings have a problem.... though I have helped a few people when dealers wanted to so a rip and replace for some strange reason....

 

[mstafford388]

21 minutes ago, ekohn00 said:

YEH, NO!   I'm running a large Unifi and large C4 install....  All default. (no VLANS, one network/subnet)

I've heard, but haven't seen 100%, that C4 has multicast/broadcast capabilities and some implementations of VLANs break them.

I don't think I've ever seen someone with a UNIFI switch & WAP that was "basic" settings have a problem.... though I have helped a few people when dealers wanted to so a rip and replace for some strange reason....

 

Well I've been on multiple projects where Unifi configuration needed to be changed to fix issues so....

[ekohn00]

5 minutes ago, mstafford388 said:

Well I've been on multiple projects where Unifi configuration needed to be changed to fix issues so....

And I'm just saying name a specific.......   I hear a lot of it doesn't work.....  but never hear why. 

Any time I've reached out to help, I end up finding out that someone had a VLAN issue or was doing mesh with unifi. And someone just wanted to swap for one reason or another.

I have yet to see anyone with a simple bunch of WAPs and switch on a network that had a problem with C4.  

[mstafford388]

6 minutes ago, ekohn00 said:

And I'm just saying name a specific.......   I hear a lot of it doesn't work.....  but never hear why. 

Any time I've reached out to help, I end up finding out that someone had a VLAN issue or was doing mesh with unifi. And someone just wanted to swap for one reason or another.

I have yet to see anyone with a simple bunch of WAPs and switch on a network that had a problem with C4.  

I'm saying I have been on jobs with those issues.  C4 issues with Ubiquity networks are almost always broadcast/mulitcast traffic being blocked/filtered so things like intercom don't work properly.  Ubiquity has even touted managing (limiting) that traffic as a feature.  IGMP snooping is also a culprit to some C4 issues but I put that issue more on C4 hardware's inability to handle it vs on the network gear using a standard network protocol.  VLANs is a whole different issue misunderstood by most dealers but that wouldn't be an "out of the box" issue.  Again I'm not saying that you can't make a Unifi network work., you absolutely can.  On lots of jobs they will work out of the box.  I just think a lot of the fear mongering comes from dealers that don't understand networking, not from C4.  At the end of the day if you use good network gear and configure it properly you're going to have good results.  

[ekohn00]

1 hour ago, mstafford388 said:

I'm saying I have been on jobs with those issues.  C4 issues with Ubiquity networks are almost always broadcast/mulitcast traffic being blocked/filtered so things like intercom don't work properly.  Ubiquity has even touted managing (limiting) that traffic as a feature.  IGMP snooping is also a culprit to some C4 issues but I put that issue more on C4 hardware's inability to handle it vs on the network gear using a standard network protocol.  VLANs is a whole different issue misunderstood by most dealers but that wouldn't be an "out of the box" issue.  Again I'm not saying that you can't make a Unifi network work., you absolutely can.  On lots of jobs they will work out of the box.  I just think a lot of the fear mongering comes from dealers that don't understand networking, not from C4.  At the end of the day if you use good network gear and configure it properly you're going to have good results.  

Well said.

[KWD]

Another happy UniFi user. UDM Pro, 2 24Port Poe switches, AC Pro, Nano HD. Flat LAN. 
 

Hopefully they will come out with a good AX access point soon. 

[ejn1]

5 hours ago, mstafford388 said:

I'm saying I have been on jobs with those issues.  C4 issues with Ubiquity networks are almost always broadcast/mulitcast traffic being blocked/filtered so things like intercom don't work properly.  Ubiquity has even touted managing (limiting) that traffic as a feature.  IGMP snooping is also a culprit to some C4 issues but I put that issue more on C4 hardware's inability to handle it vs on the network gear using a standard network protocol.  VLANs is a whole different issue misunderstood by most dealers but that wouldn't be an "out of the box" issue.  Again I'm not saying that you can't make a Unifi network work., you absolutely can.  On lots of jobs they will work out of the box.  I just think a lot of the fear mongering comes from dealers that don't understand networking, not from C4.  At the end of the day if you use good network gear and configure it properly you're going to have good results.  

Agree with this also.   I have changed my network architecture recently when I went to a UDM-Pro and decided to setup a VLAN structure, firewall restrictions and with IGMP snooping enabled.   Even in this setup it was 99% solid (I only had one issues with multicast with one device which I just moved onto the C4 Vlan to resolve.   Everything else was solid.   But as a default Unifi setup, I think its solid and safe for folks to consider and even if it gets a bit more involved, the right dealer should have no problem with it, imho.  

I have a UDM-Pro with 7 Unifi Switches and 4 APs.... 

 

[Wayne]

12 hours ago, ejn1 said:

Agree with this also.   I have changed my network architecture recently when I went to a UDM-Pro and decided to setup a VLAN structure, firewall restrictions and with IGMP snooping enabled.   Even in this setup it was 99% solid (I only had one issues with multicast with one device which I just moved onto the C4 Vlan to resolve.   Everything else was solid.   But as a default Unifi setup, I think its solid and safe for folks to consider and even if it gets a bit more involved, the right dealer should have no problem with it, imho.  

I have a UDM-Pro with 7 Unifi Switches and 4 APs.... 

 

I am about to implement a full UniFi network in my new home with C4, can those that are running successful UniFi networks suggest an ideal setup with regard to C4, VLAN's etc for a large home installation. 

[C4 User]

I am no networking genius. In fact far from it. But over 10 years with multiple C4 homes, I have alway used advanced networking gear with and without vlans, multiple subnets (today I have IoT, Family, Work), site to site vpn’s. Here is the key from a novice networking guy. Make sure your router has good reporting and configuration tools and that any managed switches have good interfaces.

Over the years I have had device issues, whether dropping, inconsistent response, no response, inconsistent device to device behavior, etc. I have always used SonicWall routers and have used both Netgear and Luxul switches (nonPOE, POE, unmanaged and managed). My sonicwall (with remote support from sonicwall) allows me to isolate and watch all network traffic, by protocol, by port, across the network, between devices, across vpn tunnels, to the WAN, whatever I want to see.

In short, I have never not been able to quickly isolate and fix a networking related issue. And I have never had to accept my dealer telling me its my network because I was always able to provide proof that the network was not jamming the communication.

So my recommendation. Use whatever robust gear you want. Just make sure it has robust reporting capabilities and good tech support if you need it. Or, if you want a truly hands off experience and will expect your dealer to manage you home network, then go with what they recommend and know best.

Enjoy!

[WholeHomeControl]

29 minutes ago, C4 User said:

In short, I have never not been able to quickly isolate and fix a networking related issue. And I have never had to accept my dealer telling me its my network because I was always able to provide proof that the network was not jamming the communication.

This is quite a statement. In my experience, things are seldom so straightforward. Consider, for example, a situation where there is periodically a delay with ZigBee control. What exactly would you show your dealer to prove that the issue is not with the network?

[C4 User]

1 hour ago, WholeHomeControl said:

This is quite a statement. In my experience, things are seldom so straightforward. Consider, for example, a situation where there is periodically a delay with ZigBee control. What exactly would you show your dealer to prove that the issue is not with the network?

Again, I am not an expert and I am not a dealer. My only experience with C4 is my 12 years of C4 in multiple houses. I am involved in the design, build, install and servicing of extremely large and complex machinery automation, so certainly not afraid to jump in deep and even challenge the most technically savvy once in a while. But I listen and stand for correction when appropriate. Regardless, take my comments for what they are worth.

My Zigbee network has been relatively stable for many years now. Back in the 1.6 up to maybe 2.4 i had ongoing zigbee ghosts that required me to reboot HC1000 and whatever my other secondary controllers were. Back in the day I also had to watch my WiFi and Zigbee channels to ensure they were not overlapping. Today I do not even think about it. I have found the biggest issue with Zigbee is too small of a network of zigbee devices or devices that are remote and isolated. So I have found that if you have a strong zigbee network (strong in terms of number of devices and proper spacing throughout the install), so that any single device has multiple options for zigbee routing back to the controller, its very stable and responsive. Once in a while, like maybe once a year, I have to either reset (15 tap) or cut power or circuit breaker to reset an unresponsive or problematic C4 switch (this is like 1 out of 100’s). All my controllers, AV devices, network gear, tv’s, etc are on UPS’s and rarely get restarted. I do find that my Apple TV (gen iv) needs to be rebooted occasionally and that is on a Wattbox outlet making it easy to reboot remotely.

[WholeHomeControl]

Successful ZigBee communication depends not just on the RF element, but it also depends on the network. This is because there are 3 separate processes in the command chain for ZigBee processing (Director, Zserver and ZAP), and these processes rely on the network to communicate with one another.  Sometimes a networking problem might, for example, inhibit commmunication between Zserver and Director and result in commands being delayed or dropped.

So, suppose there is a ZigBee issue.  If your mesh were strong and RF environment clean, your dealer would look to the network as the possible culprit.  This is where I have trouble seeing what you could readily do to categorically prove that the network is not at fault.

[Amr]

On 5/13/2020 at 10:32 PM, ChrisX0X said:

Hi folks

Im in the last stages of my residential construction, and I was just about to place an order for networking equipment but my integrator called me and said I take no responsibility for your system to work with Ubiquiti hardware, and you cannot blame me if anything goes wrong.

Now, obviously my integrator wants to sell me his own expensive stuff, but as he is taking no responsibility if something goes wrong, I am now having 2nd thoughts. (And to add I am also worried that if something else goes wrong with the integration, he might use the Ubiquiti as a scapegoat).

I will be using an EA3 system, with approximately 30 lan ports around the house and 15 devices on POE.

My plan was to purchase:
5x Unifi NanoHD

1x UniFi Security Gateway

1x UniFi Switch 24 PoE Gen2 

1x UniFi Switch 48 Non-PoE 

1x UniFi Cloud Key Gen2

 

What are your thoughts on the above? Would you recommend something else instead of any of the above equipment? Ideally I want to remain within the same price range as the above.

Thanks

Chris

My 2 cents. UniFi is very powerful, solid system, running for 5 years. Zero issues if you don’t touch it, tinkering is a plus if you know what you are doing, I will never try anything else