New Control4 Remotes coming 2021?!

[ekohn00]

2 hours ago, Mr.barillas said:

The New Remotes Should Be all on Zigbee, so they don't rely on external agents.  Like congested Wifi or IP router problems.

 

that's like changing out internet to x.25 because we want a better connection...

 

[Andrew luecke]

8 hours ago, Mr.barillas said:

The New Remotes Should Be all on Zigbee, so they don't rely on external agents.  Like congested Wifi or IP router problems.

too many issues with those NEO remotes, to be honest, most cases we  stick to the SR260

BUT NOW IS TIME TO MOVE ON.

If you have network issues, on most jobs you'll be having trouble controlling things anyway.

Network issues are also easy to fix, and even easier to diagnose. The problem is, people put unmanaged switches in , don't turn on the mechanisms designed to protect the network, or use cheap equipment. When I was an installer, we avoided 99% of that by mostly refusing to use unmanaged switches. Honestly, most of the other issues we have were easy to identify because of the smart switches.

Wifi 7 is 30gbps. Even with interference, congestion will likely matter less too.

Also, it's less likely ZigBee coverage in a house will be sufficient. I've seen cases where insufficient controllers were installed, and control got sketchy in another room because someone walked in front of it 

[Andrew luecke]

11 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

If you have network issues, on most jobs you'll be having trouble controlling things anyway.

Network issues are also easy to fix, and even easier to diagnose. The problem is, people put unmanaged switches in , don't turn on the mechanisms designed to protect the network, or use cheap equipment. When I was an installer, we avoided 99% of that by mostly refusing to use unmanaged switches. Honestly, most of the other issues we have were easy to identify because of the smart switches.

Wifi 7 is 30gbps. Even with interference, congestion will likely matter less too.

Also, it's less likely ZigBee coverage in a house will be sufficient. I've seen cases where insufficient controllers were installed, and control got sketchy in another room because someone walked in front of it 

Also.. if you're interested, there's a whitepaper on some of the new Wifi 7 stuff: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2008.02815.pdf

But summary is, hugely improved beamforming, the worst case latency is reduced massively (from 200ms to 22ms in tests), and way better handling of interference. Apparently a huge amount of emphasis has been on targeting IOT devices (which especially when combined with technologies like UAPSD / WMM Power Save, makes it a good choice for remotes  

[Neo1738]

I haven't had any major issues w my Neeo. Actually prefer it in mixing run and theater. I do like sr260 in bedroom bc usually darker there and easier to feel buttons. 

[ekohn00]

10 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

But summary is, hugely improved beamforming, the worst case latency is reduced massively (from 200ms to 22ms in tests), and way better handling of interference. Apparently a huge amount of emphasis has been on targeting IOT devices (which especially when combined with technologies like UAPSD / WMM Power Save, makes it a good choice for remotes  

The problem with technical papers is focusing on the basics. The average home user (not including gamers/streamers) will probably see no immediate gains using wifi 7. There is definitely no reason at all, in any way to thing you should wait for wifi 7 because a remote will work better. 7 doesn't actually focus on IoT, but focuses on bringing higher speeds and lower latency to all devices. Ironically the IoT devices are the last to upgrade to newer used frequencies (ie still on 2.4 and not 5 or 6Ghz).

Now for us with house holds with a number of gamers and streaming devices (pelotons, apple tvs), that have suffered under minimal number of APs, 7 should relieve that (but it will be number of years for the devices to also support 7).

 

[LollerAgent]

19 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

If you have network issues, on most jobs you'll be having trouble controlling things anyway.

Network issues are also easy to fix, and even easier to diagnose. The problem is, people put unmanaged switches in , don't turn on the mechanisms designed to protect the network, or use cheap equipment. When I was an installer, we avoided 99% of that by mostly refusing to use unmanaged switches. Honestly, most of the other issues we have were easy to identify because of the smart switches.

Wifi 7 is 30gbps. Even with interference, congestion will likely matter less too.

Also, it's less likely ZigBee coverage in a house will be sufficient. I've seen cases where insufficient controllers were installed, and control got sketchy in another room because someone walked in front of it 

To be fair, the WIFI chipset (or software/implementation, etc) in the Neeo is absolutely horrid.  There are known issues that have been proven by numerous people.

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by LollerAgent

[Neo1738]

2 hours ago, LollerAgent said:

To be fair, the WIFI chipset (or software/implementation, etc) in the Neeo is absolutely horrid.  There are known issues that have been proven by numerous people.

 

Guess I got 2 good ones no major issues. 

[RGBlake]

I think we are long overdue for a remote with voice capabilities!

[Andrew luecke]

9 hours ago, LollerAgent said:

To be fair, the WIFI chipset (or software/implementation, etc) in the Neeo is absolutely horrid.  There are known issues that have been proven by numerous people.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of it is caused by confusion over things like how WIFI Sleep should work (in fact, in the past, many systems I've logged in had it disabled in their wifi AP settings. From my understanding, Wifi sleep should correspond to WMM-PS, and if its not turned on in your wifi, it will affect your reconnection rate). I've also come across systems which had network issues or other problems. 

Also, sometimes, the issues weren't actually the fault of the NEEO, but underpowered controllers for the load, or issues with drivers (I still regularly come across controllers running known problematic drivers like the ping driver). As of late, we've also been putting in a lot of proactive measures and diagnostics / troubleshooting to help manage these risks 

 

11 hours ago, ekohn00 said:

The problem with technical papers is focusing on the basics. The average home user (not including gamers/streamers) will probably see no immediate gains using wifi 7. There is definitely no reason at all, in any way to thing you should wait for wifi 7 because a remote will work better. 7 doesn't actually focus on IoT, but focuses on bringing higher speeds and lower latency to all devices. Ironically the IoT devices are the last to upgrade to newer used frequencies (ie still on 2.4 and not 5 or 6Ghz).

Now for us with house holds with a number of gamers and streaming devices (pelotons, apple tvs), that have suffered under minimal number of APs, 7 should relieve that (but it will be number of years for the devices to also support 7).

 

Not for gamers or streamers, you're right, except to the improved ping, it won't make a difference there generally (honestly, Wifi 6 has mostly resolved that anyway). But due to deterministic low latency, improved reliability of signal,  and sufficient bandwidth, it does open up applications like potentially wireless MOIP.  Also from my understanding, because there are a few more advantages to implementation this time around due to improved MIMO (which also improves reliability of signal and latency), whereas, the other iterations, didn't really have any real advantages for low-bandwidth devices probably. 

 

 

[South Africa C4 user]

@Andrew luecke - so you are saying the WiFi sleep setting should be enabled?

[ekohn00]

On 7/30/2022 at 10:13 PM, Andrew luecke said:

Not for gamers or streamers, you're right, except to the improved ping, it won't make a difference there generally (honestly, Wifi 6 has mostly resolved that anyway). But due to deterministic low latency, improved reliability of signal,  and sufficient bandwidth, it does open up applications like potentially wireless MOIP.  Also from my understanding, because there are a few more advantages to implementation this time around due to improved MIMO (which also improves reliability of signal and latency), whereas, the other iterations, didn't really have any real advantages for low-bandwidth devices probably. 

I think for the home user, MIMO  fixed the latency issues and makes wireless MOIP reliable. It's the commercial deliver that is problematic. When you go from a couple dozen devices is a home (very high end) streaming to 100's on AP, even the best implementation of MIMO has some sort of delay (latency) distributing the data.

[Cyknight]

On 7/30/2022 at 11:09 PM, South Africa C4 user said:

@Andrew luecke - so you are saying the WiFi sleep setting should be enabled?

yes, generally you want WMM-PS to be enabled, allowing devices that support it to go 'silent' for extended periods of time without being forced to reconnect (re authenticate really) to the AP - note that some devices don't always play nice (much like fast roaming and HP (and many other brand) printers) so be aware that enabling it can have other effects.

[dinom]

So back to the topic of this thread, any rumors of new remotes coming out?  I still struggle to use the NEEO in my 100% light controlled theater. Would be great to get a new touchscreen with additional backlit buttons. 

[Andrew luecke]

9 hours ago, ekohn00 said:

I think for the home user, MIMO  fixed the latency issues and makes wireless MOIP reliable. It's the commercial deliver that is problematic. When you go from a couple dozen devices is a home (very high end) streaming to 100's on AP, even the best implementation of MIMO has some sort of delay (latency) distributing the data.

According to the whitepaper, the latency in wifi 6 still dropped down to 200ms in their tests in some scenarios, and was more reliable. 

The other issue with wireless moip would be bandwidth. Wifi 7 is expected to have a minimum of 30gbps. So, we're now at the point we could do uncompressed HDMI too potentially, which, would mean that the data could be sent without being recompressed or changed (simplifying things potentially, but not sure how well HDMI handles 22ms latency

 

On 7/31/2022 at 3:09 PM, South Africa C4 user said:

@Andrew luecke - so you are saying the WiFi sleep setting should be enabled?

As mentioned by Cyknight, I do.. And enable it on your AP's (someone from SnapAV would need to confirm that NEEO supports UAPSD though). 

So, without WiFi Sleep, when a device turns off the WiFi antenna, it needs to completely reconnect to the AP when it is turned back on. 

With WiFi Sleep, a device can tell the AP that it's sleeping. I'm not 100% sure of the specifics, but in theory, the device tells the AP it's going to sleep and tell it to assume it will wake up at that point. When the radio wakes back up, it is already connected. As a bonus, this also saves a huge amount of battery on mobile devices. 

On Ubiquiti in particular, UAPSD is STILL disabled by default (despite in my experience, many devices like old samsung TV's have problems connecting if its off). Its one of few power saving technologies in the network world which in my experience has limited disadvantages, and plenty of advantages.

 

I also find some other devices we write drivers for work a bit better with it on (but I could be imagining it)

[ekohn00]

11 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

Wifi 7 is expected to have a minimum of 30gbps

Start selling your GigE stuff now! Time to upgrade and take advantage of wifi 7     (This is sarcasm....Don't mean to start a serious discussion).

But seriously, once the home user gets over the cost, WIFI 7 is going to bring a lot of network changes too in order to take advantage.

 

 

[msgreenf]

27 minutes ago, ekohn00 said:

Start selling your GigE stuff now! Time to upgrade and take advantage of wifi 7     (This is sarcasm....Don't mean to start a serious discussion).

But seriously, once the home user gets over the cost, WIFI 7 is going to bring a lot of network changes too in order to take advantage.

 

 

I may sound like a naysayer - but what is the practice application for WiFi 7 speeds for a home in 2024 (when chips for WiFi 7 are expected to go into mass production from Intel)

[RAV]

1 hour ago, msgreenf said:

I may sound like a naysayer - but what is the practice application for WiFi 7 speeds for a home in 2024 (when chips for WiFi 7 are expected to go into mass production from Intel)

Doesn't matter, it's faster, got to have it whether there's a benefit or not.

So many people over paying ISPs.
I need a gig to surf facebook! Who told you that? The guy selling it to me.

[RAV]

15 hours ago, dinom said:

So back to the topic of this thread, any rumors of new remotes coming out?  I still struggle to use the NEEO in my 100% light controlled theater. Would be great to get a new touchscreen with additional backlit buttons. 

There's always rumors, and they're always developing.
Line from the Neeo EOL: "Therefore, our Product Team is focusing their efforts on our next-generation remote control. "

[zaphod]

1 hour ago, RAV said:

Doesn't matter, it's faster, got to have it whether there's a benefit or not.

So many people over paying ISPs.
I need a gig to surf facebook! Who told you that? The guy selling it to me.

Here in Canada, Bell Canada, one of the ISPs, is selling 3Gbps service and 1.5Gbps service.  Many people are getting it because it is the fastest, but I really wonder how many people have the hardware to have any benefit from this service over 1Gbps service that saves them $25/month.

[eggzlot]

3 hours ago, RAV said:

Doesn't matter, it's faster, got to have it whether there's a benefit or not.

So many people over paying ISPs.
I need a gig to surf facebook! Who told you that? The guy selling it to me.

ha couldn't agree more.  my friends see my crazy set up in the house and ask how we like the 1 Gbps from Fios or something and I say I am on 100/100 with Fios and they look at me confused.  Then I remind them I can stream like 10 4k netflix movies at once with 100/100 and still have some overhead so why do I need more?  I get confused looks but I don't care.  It will be a long time before residential really needs a major boost.

[ekohn00]

6 hours ago, msgreenf said:

I may sound like a naysayer - but what is the practice application for WiFi 7 speeds for a home in 2024 (when chips for WiFi 7 are expected to go into mass production from Intel)

you're not being a naysayer ....  It can't come fast enough, as far as Im concerned. But not for home use. I have countless business applications that absolutely need it.

As I mentioned previously, most home users don't have the infrastructure to support it. Or maybe just make the entire home wireless to one AP.  Hope its a small home so it would work.

 

[Andrew luecke]

7 hours ago, ekohn00 said:

you're not being a naysayer ....  It can't come fast enough, as far as Im concerned. But not for home use. I have countless business applications that absolutely need it.

As I mentioned previously, most home users don't have the infrastructure to support it. Or maybe just make the entire home wireless to one AP.  Hope its a small home so it would work.

 

*sigh*. Even a 5gbps ethernet based Wifi 7 AP would have huge improvements which opens up new applications which apply to home users, pertaining mainly to the new worst-case latency improvements and reliability. No, you wouldn't even need a 30gb backbone to benefit. 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/OculusQuest/comments/myilg9/air_link_whats_your_latency/ << Here's a real-life application right here as an example, which Wifi 7 technologies fixes. No, Wifi 6 doesn't fix that. Does Wireless airlink work without Wifi 7? Yes, but 200ms kills the experience (the oculus headsets apparently can compensate if you're moving, but only so much). 20ms max lag will be quickly noticeable to a lot of VR users (obviously, Wifi 7 headsets would be required I'm guessing for the full benefit).

2 other benefits are:

• Even small amounts of lag when loading a website greatly increases the time it load the website in a lot of cases (because, resources need to wait for other resources to download, before the next ones, etc). So, if you have issues with wifi due to interference, your website will no longer feel instant..   
• Think about new low-latency wireless HDMI standards, which are now suitable even for gaming. 20ms is only 1fps when using 50hz.  200ms, is a major stutter, and in any action game, a huge disadvantage ..
• And, when users have wifi problems, it basically eliminates the possibility its interference finally. So, troubleshooting is easier

 My understanding is that Wifi 7 has MIMO across AP's now. So, yes, multiple AP's benefit hugely in other ways than bandwidth (for reliability, and quality of connection too).. Better handling of interference too. 

The fact that its fast enough for uncompressed HDMI in many cases too, and has the latency to support it, is the icing on the cake. 

Finally, the writing has been on the wall for copper for at least 4 years now (due to ultra high speed HDMI). In Installer/Control4 groups, a few people (not just myself) have  been warning to run Fibre for years or have conduit available in new builds. Any high end home being built now should have some means of accommodating fibre infrastructure already, so when WIFI 7 is available in 2 years time, the infrastructure is there to allow the possibility of running it at full bandwidth if users want (fibre also can also be used for HDMI applications)

[mindedc1]

 

The reality is you don't have to get to wifi 7, 6e will solve all of these issues.  6E has 60 channels of 20mhz and seven at 160!!! Thats gobs of throughput. The other thing is that you won't have any legacy protocols dragging on. 6e really doesn't have any inherent technology that 5 doesn't (1024 QAM, wave division multiplexing - OFDMA, mu-mimo, ap brokers all transmit opportunities). Where you get the massive performance/reliability increase is you don't have legacy systems using the older protocols (AC,N,G,B etc). An AX modulation AP can deliver small slices of bandwidth to things like phones checking mail and large slices to video consumers simultaneously (in the same transmission) on a predictable interval. The AP arbitrates which client sends and when that client sends so you don't have the spectrum waste of speakers clobbering each other and requiring a random retransmission window.

MIMO and MU-MIMO are useless technologies in any home environment as well as most indoor environments. You have to have multiple paths/reflections from the client to the AP. With a 5ghz signal in a residential environment you're going to have so much attenuation in the walls you're not going to get enough high quality "bank shots" against the AP to recycle the spectrum. In that case channel bonding is going to give more performance. The limiting factor on channel bonding is that 99% of the traffic goes into the first channel in a AC (wifi 5) or lower system and the rest only get used when there is available transmit opportunities in the first channel. In AX or wifi 6,6e it uses wave division multplexing so all the channels are used simultaneously and slices of the bandwidth get allocated out to the clients. 

Good news is that 6E is shipping. We've installed tens of thousands of 6e aps and there are clients shipping.  Bad news is that to take advantage of all the wave division multiplexing (OFDMA) and get 32 simultaneous users per transmit you need expensive silicon that's going for nearly $2K per access point in high quantities right now. The lower end chips can't break the spectrum up as finely and youre limited on the number of simultaneous receivers.

Interestingly we are deploying all of these on copper and with multi-rate (NBase-T). Fiber is a poor choice for APs because you still have to power the dammed things. You can push 5 gig over 300 feet and supply 90 watts of power on cat 6 and 10G to over 100 feet. We're putting in ports of Nbase-T as fast as the hardware hits the shores. We do use APs with fiber but it's generally for outdoor or LPV (Large public venues) and you're having to run additional power at the far end. Hell, you can get 10G inside most residences with cat 5e cabling. Fiber is important for higher speed uplinks and I do prefer it for HDMI, but not needed for something like an AP. The fun thing is that a 48 port switch now requires 3KW of power if it's full of APs...a closet of 10 switches in theory could pull 30KW....

It will all get there where the technology is cost effective, but for now it's expensive. You also have the issue that 6ghz is only being allowed to operate in a functionally line of sight mode (FCC TX power restrictions), you're going to need a lot more APs for that spectrum than you would even a 5ghz deployment.... high density commercial deployments we're finding to be ok, but what we see on the residential side would require additional APs.