Building a new house, two integrator proposals, many questions

[maxspivak]

We've got two dealers creating proposals for our 4200 sq ft house that's getting built. Nothing overly fancy - C4 control, lighting (100 switched legs, so some would be panelized), surveillance, shades, 8 audio zones, 1 home theater, networking, door locks. Note that we have a C4 system in my primary house since 2006. Both proposals are in the $150k range, of which shades is about $46k (28 windows). (This is excluding theater A/V gear.)

Networking

Let's start with networking. Both are specifying Araknis 310 router & switches. One is specifying 5x Ruckus Unleashed R550 WAPs. The other is specifying either 4x Araknis 810 Series WAPs or 5x Ubiquity AC Pro WAPs. Suggestions on WAPs?

Both dealers are saying that I must use Araknis (or Pakedge) routers and switches as Ubiquity is on C4 "do not use" list and you end up with finger pointing from C4 tech support. How much of a problem is it in reality? Will C4 really not support their product unless Snap networking is used?

Surveillance

Both are specifying Luma cameras and either Luma or LTS NVR. This way the cameras have the 720p stream to send to the C4 app. I currently don't have the surveillance n the C4 app - is it a good option? The capability seems very limited as compared to the Ring app. I asked one about UniFi surveillance, he said he doesn't like the camera mounts and it doesn't integrate well with C4 and requires a 3p driver that he doesn't like to use. 

Distributed Audio

Both initially specified Triad 16 channel power amp and Triad 16x16 matrix switch. I pushed them both towards the Episode Response Matrix Amp for cost savings and they both reluctantly agreed. One pushed Triad pretty hard because of "better quality components" but for background music from ceiling speakers - it doesn't really matter. Any actual downsides to the Response over Triad?

Security

None of them really do traditional security systems. My current system is the old GE Concord4 panel with the RS2000 bridge to C4, which allows for integration. Wife loves the automation that turns on all lights when alarm is tripped. Any suggestions how to proceed with something that integrates well with C4? I do want door sensors and either window contact sensors or glass break + motion + siren. This is the Tahoe area, so bear break-ins is the biggest threat. Yes - bears. 

Lighting

We have 100 switched legs to control and want to minimize "wall acne". Each room has anywhere from 3 to 6 lighting zones (cans, wall step lights, wall sconces, chandeliers, pendants, linear, etc). Each room will have at least one wireless dimmer or a keypad dimmer so that in event of control system failure, one circuit in a room still works. The other circuits may be panelized and accessed via scenes from the keypads, mobile app or Alexa or in some cases multiple dimmers in a gang. We're OK with wall acne in secondary bathrooms, for example. Any feedback on this plan?

Locks

Both are specifying C4-approved locks. Are Baldwin, Kwikset and Yale the only options?

HVAC

How is the Aprilaire thermostat? It's just kind of... utilitarian and ugly looking - currently have Ecobee that's much more elegant. 

Control, Rack

• Two racks - one in media room for theater A/V gear, one by garage for everything else. 
• EA3 for media room and EA5 to run rest of house. 
• Both are specifying rather pricy WattBox, UPS, Branch Circuit Protection...

 

Thanks in advance for answers and feedback!

Max

 

[Mister_Tad]

2 hours ago, maxspivak said:

Let's start with networking. Both are specifying Araknis 310 router & switches. One is specifying 5x Ruckus Unleashed R550 WAPs. The other is specifying either 4x Araknis 810 Series WAPs or 5x Ubiquity AC Pro WAPs. Suggestions on WAPs?

Both dealers are saying that I must use Araknis (or Pakedge) routers and switches as Ubiquity is on C4 "do not use" list and you end up with finger pointing from C4 tech support. How much of a problem is it in reality? Will C4 really not support their product unless Snap networking is used?

This smells like nonsense... perhaps a grain of truth, but with a fairly hefty stretch.

(caveat, I'm a user, not a dealer)

 

I'm using a whole house of Unifi hardware - rotuer, switches, APs, cameras etc - all works beautifully with C4. No issues were ever so much as mentioned by my dealer.

The camera integration works very well - it is a $150 driver third party driver however. Snapshots of the cameras in Navigator don't display so you won't be able to get a video wall sort of display on your touchscreens or in the C4 App. But in the case of Unifi cameras you would be using the Unifi app to directly view/scrub streams anyway, as it's leaps better than using the C4 app to do so. You can get live streams, trigger events, and use zones on the camera stream as virtual buttons as well.

 

That said, C4/Snap would not "support" Unifi, being entirely separate vendors and all. If some sort of connectivity issue were to arise, and if your dealer were managing the network it would be them on the hook for resolving the issue - in only using kit from C4s list, the onus is more on C4 to resolve issues, and not your dealer. It could also simply be a case of them not wanting to install and manage Unifi in preference of networking gear they've standardised on, which they're certainly within their rights to do as well.

 

If I were cynical I could also say that there's a meatier margin to be had on the other gear they're suggesting. But I'm not. So I won't.

EDIT: joking, sorta. This is almost unquestionably the case, but there are other perfectly valid reasons above they would prefer to keep it in-house. Given the scale of the job I don't think getting another few hundred bucks on the router is really top of mind here.

 

In any case, AC-Pros are old hat. For Unifi APs, hardware from the U6 range would be a better choice.

[SMHarman]

Now my 'buddies rate' main home install has Unifi networking I bought and is working fine. 

BUT my buddy will now only now Meraki based installs. Why, C4 is all about the quality of the network and and any problems there give weird hard to diagnose problems and cost him time, money and unhappy end users. 

Meraki cuts way down on service calls and other random customer dissatisfaction. He's also installing a SIM chip to give backup ISP. 

I bought a second home in 2020 and his housewarming gift to me was a Pakedge RK1, 2X WX2 and their 48 port POE switch. That switch has now been swapped for a 8 port Araknis as the POE wasn't always coming back online after longer power outages without unplugging and replacing the WAP cables. This gear was stacked in his stock room because it's pulled from clients and retired it. My SLA with him is a few pints of guinness and some sushi once in a while, his other customers can buy up to 24/7/365/4h

So networking is everything and yes if the networking is supported then C4 will step in and help and if the dealer knows their network setup they also know how to troubleshoot. 

 

[DanITman]

3 hours ago, maxspivak said:

Both dealers are saying that I must use Araknis (or Pakedge) routers and switches as Ubiquity is on C4 "do not use" list and you end up with finger pointing from C4 tech support. How much of a problem is it in reality? Will C4 really not support their product unless Snap networking is used?

 A lie that continues to be told by C4 dealers.

[DanITman]

3 hours ago, maxspivak said:

Surveillance

Both are specifying Luma cameras and either Luma or LTS NVR. This way the cameras have the 720p stream to send to the C4 app. I currently don't have the surveillance n the C4 app - is it a good option? The capability seems very limited as compared to the Ring app. I asked one about UniFi surveillance, he said he doesn't like the camera mounts and it doesn't integrate well with C4 and requires a 3p driver that he doesn't like to use. 

You can pick either but if you are going to rely on your dealer, I would use what they prefer.  Neither product is going to give you the ring experience inside the c4 app.  The only thing you can do inside the c4 app is view live cameras.  I would focus on which system is the best outside of c4 for scrubbing timelines and getting alerts. 

3 hours ago, maxspivak said:

Security

None of them really do traditional security systems. My current system is the old GE Concord4 panel with the RS2000 bridge to C4, which allows for integration. Wife loves the automation that turns on all lights when alarm is tripped. Any suggestions how to proceed with something that integrates well with C4? I do want door sensors and either window contact sensors or glass break + motion + siren. This is the Tahoe area, so bear break-ins is the biggest threat. Yes - bears.

I think upgrading your system is optional but I like it. You can upgrade to a honeywell vista system and bridge to c4.  This is what i do.  This will likely allow you to use your existing wired sensors. 

3 hours ago, maxspivak said:

Locks

Both are specifying C4-approved locks. Are Baldwin, Kwikset and Yale the only options?

Yes, yale and kwikset are you only options.  Kwikset has many different brand names that they sell under.  I use kwikset and like it. 

3 hours ago, maxspivak said:

HVAC

How is the Aprilaire thermostat? It's just kind of... utilitarian and ugly looking - currently have Ecobee that's much more elegant. 

They provide the best feature set.  Way more features then the ecobee.  Now is the time to relocate them to the furnace room and use remote sensors for temp.  If you need wall control you can use the t4 screens or put the thermostats on the wall. 

[wnpublic]

Luma is junk. Nice for the dealer, because easy for them to support, bad for you.  Almost anything else is better. 

araknis for the routers/ switches is fine.  Would avoid araknis APs. 

[RAV]

The bottom line, for most dealers Araknis is a better fit. There's support and returns, it's approved and on the favored list, there's the whole OVRC platform, which for a busy dealer makes a lot of sense.
Nothing specifically wrong with the others, but it's more work, less profit typically and little to no support.

While the Aprilaire thermostat isn't pretty, it does just plain work, zero issues.

Overall both proposals make sense, pick whom you have a better relationship with.

[Gene]

Heres my take, but please realize that C4 is a dealer platform so having a dealer you can rely on, helps in the overall experience.

Getting multiple quotes is good.

Networking

Ruckus is excellent and I have had no problems for years; prior had issues with Araknis but if the dealer is supporting, shouldn't have any issues.  The unifi debate I won't get into but realize C4 is dealer based so go with something that is recommended so its easily supported (unless your supporting it yourself). 

Surveillance

Cameras are all over but Luma works well.  I prefer a separate app although many can be integrated into C4 for programming which is helpful (per your request).

Distributed Audio

Your solution is fine as long as its background music; You can spend alot of money on audio, but from your statement of expectations, is valid and it works.

Security

Utilize what the dealer wishes to recommened and view demo with dealer;  You and your wife's expectations are easily met, but having it integrated correctly helps with the process and support.

Lighting

C4 or Lutron work great; You can reduce wall clutter with keypads etc...  Again, planning with a dealer is key esepecially during construction.

Locks

Do you have a style that works with the home; that would determine which brand you might choose; Your list is accurate, but its getting them that sometimes a pain (supply chain).

HVAC

Both work well; Your correct on looks for Aprilaire but Ecobee works fine too.  Both integrate fine.

Control, Rack

I would recommend you go with one of the NEW controllers to be released if your planning now (core); run Cat-6 everywhere you can; You didn't discuss distributed video; WattBox, UPS, etc...is just good practice and easily manageable if you have issues (dealer can help via remote).

https://www.strata-gee.com/snap-one-unleashes-an-array-of-new-products-at-virtual-partner-summit/

[Control4Savant]

39 minutes ago, wnpublic said:

Luma is junk. Nice for the dealer, because easy for them to support, bad for you.  Almost anything else is better. 

araknis for the routers/ switches is fine.  Would avoid araknis APs. 

Luma is fine. I DO use them 9/10 times specifically because of the support you speak of, which is the reason a lot of us use Snap brands. You may not realize it as an end user but the reason Snap has become so large is because of the epic service. I would guess that has to also do a bit with some of their negative profit gains in the qt reports. I would argue that unless you are buying high end $1k+ cams everything is very much the same and having a focus on quality installation, isolated security, remote support and immediate service is absolutely in the best interests of the consumer as well. 

 

36 minutes ago, RAV said:

The bottom line, for most dealers Araknis is a better fit. There's support and returns, it's approved and on the favored list, there's the whole OVRC platform, which for a busy dealer makes a lot of sense.
Nothing specifically wrong with the others, but it's more work, less profit typically and little to no support.

While the Aprilaire thermostat isn't pretty, it does just plain work, zero issues.

Overall both proposals make sense, pick whom you have a better relationship with.

This is the reason AV integrators continue to suck as IT/networking. The industry continues to cater to “AV line” gear thats plug and play and profitable. Large residential smart homes with managed networks require a lot of specific understanding which is why there is a DNS list and why it can introduce a lot of networking conflicts guys dont understand. Most smart homes need very little advanced configuration unless doing IPoAV. You could run vlans for security but otherwise Control4 systems can run reliably on “dumb” networks just as well, its network connectivity systems need, not network quality. 

4 hours ago, maxspivak said:

We've got two dealers creating proposals for our 4200 sq ft house that's getting built. Nothing overly fancy - C4 control, lighting (100 switched legs, so some would be panelized), surveillance, shades, 8 audio zones, 1 home theater, networking, door locks. Note that we have a C4 system in my primary house since 2006. Both proposals are in the $150k range, of which shades is about $46k (28 windows). (This is excluding theater A/V gear.)

Networking

Let's start with networking. Both are specifying Araknis 310 router & switches. One is specifying 5x Ruckus Unleashed R550 WAPs. The other is specifying either 4x Araknis 810 Series WAPs or 5x Ubiquity AC Pro WAPs. Suggestions on WAPs?

Both dealers are saying that I must use Araknis (or Pakedge) routers and switches as Ubiquity is on C4 "do not use" list and you end up with finger pointing from C4 tech support. How much of a problem is it in reality? Will C4 really not support their product unless Snap networking is used?

Surveillance

Both are specifying Luma cameras and either Luma or LTS NVR. This way the cameras have the 720p stream to send to the C4 app. I currently don't have the surveillance n the C4 app - is it a good option? The capability seems very limited as compared to the Ring app. I asked one about UniFi surveillance, he said he doesn't like the camera mounts and it doesn't integrate well with C4 and requires a 3p driver that he doesn't like to use. 

Distributed Audio

Both initially specified Triad 16 channel power amp and Triad 16x16 matrix switch. I pushed them both towards the Episode Response Matrix Amp for cost savings and they both reluctantly agreed. One pushed Triad pretty hard because of "better quality components" but for background music from ceiling speakers - it doesn't really matter. Any actual downsides to the Response over Triad?

 

 

Dealer with Araknis gear and Rukus APs would seem to have a better understanding of things. Rukus APs are high performing but higher priced than a Ubiquity AP of equal performance. 

Shades cost a fortune. What is the brand? Some could save you maybe half as much…. 

You made the right call on the amps. Triad has never been an amp company. Sonance also makes great distribution amps that are priced well. 

 

 

[wnpublic]

12 minutes ago, Control4Savant said:

Luma is fine. I DO use them 9/10 times specifically because of the support you speak of, which is the reason a lot of us use Snap brands. You may not realize it as an end user but the reason Snap has become so large is because of the epic service. I would guess that has to also do a bit with some of their negative profit gains in the qt reports. I would argue that unless you are buying high end $1k+ cams everything is very much the same and having a focus on quality installation, isolated security, remote support and immediate service is absolutely in the best interests of the consumer as well.

I take your point.  I suppose the more refined version of "Luma is junk" is "If you intend only to view camera feeds in real time, then you will be fine with Luma and using the C4 app.  If you need to be able to easily view/scrub/export captured video/do literally anything else, then Luma is pure junk.  Also they will abandon you, as they did with the 501 NVR users."

[eggzlot]

5 hours ago, maxspivak said:

We've got two dealers creating proposals for our 4200 sq ft house that's getting built. Nothing overly fancy - C4 control, lighting (100 switched legs, so some would be panelized), surveillance, shades, 8 audio zones, 1 home theater, networking, door locks. Note that we have a C4 system in my primary house since 2006. Both proposals are in the $150k range, of which shades is about $46k (28 windows). (This is excluding theater A/V gear.)

Networking

Let's start with networking. Both are specifying Araknis 310 router & switches. One is specifying 5x Ruckus Unleashed R550 WAPs. The other is specifying either 4x Araknis 810 Series WAPs or 5x Ubiquity AC Pro WAPs. Suggestions on WAPs?

Both dealers are saying that I must use Araknis (or Pakedge) routers and switches as Ubiquity is on C4 "do not use" list and you end up with finger pointing from C4 tech support. How much of a problem is it in reality? Will C4 really not support their product unless Snap networking is used?

Surveillance

Both are specifying Luma cameras and either Luma or LTS NVR. This way the cameras have the 720p stream to send to the C4 app. I currently don't have the surveillance n the C4 app - is it a good option? The capability seems very limited as compared to the Ring app. I asked one about UniFi surveillance, he said he doesn't like the camera mounts and it doesn't integrate well with C4 and requires a 3p driver that he doesn't like to use. 

Distributed Audio

Both initially specified Triad 16 channel power amp and Triad 16x16 matrix switch. I pushed them both towards the Episode Response Matrix Amp for cost savings and they both reluctantly agreed. One pushed Triad pretty hard because of "better quality components" but for background music from ceiling speakers - it doesn't really matter. Any actual downsides to the Response over Triad?

Security

None of them really do traditional security systems. My current system is the old GE Concord4 panel with the RS2000 bridge to C4, which allows for integration. Wife loves the automation that turns on all lights when alarm is tripped. Any suggestions how to proceed with something that integrates well with C4? I do want door sensors and either window contact sensors or glass break + motion + siren. This is the Tahoe area, so bear break-ins is the biggest threat. Yes - bears. 

Lighting

We have 100 switched legs to control and want to minimize "wall acne". Each room has anywhere from 3 to 6 lighting zones (cans, wall step lights, wall sconces, chandeliers, pendants, linear, etc). Each room will have at least one wireless dimmer or a keypad dimmer so that in event of control system failure, one circuit in a room still works. The other circuits may be panelized and accessed via scenes from the keypads, mobile app or Alexa or in some cases multiple dimmers in a gang. We're OK with wall acne in secondary bathrooms, for example. Any feedback on this plan?

Locks

Both are specifying C4-approved locks. Are Baldwin, Kwikset and Yale the only options?

HVAC

How is the Aprilaire thermostat? It's just kind of... utilitarian and ugly looking - currently have Ecobee that's much more elegant. 

Control, Rack

• Two racks - one in media room for theater A/V gear, one by garage for everything else. 
• EA3 for media room and EA5 to run rest of house. 
• Both are specifying rather pricy WattBox, UPS, Branch Circuit Protection...

 

Thanks in advance for answers and feedback!

Max

 

Networking - unless you are a network admin yourself, leave this to the dealer.  Less finger pointing if you install your own network and there are issues - then who is to blame?  I use Unifi WAPs, but I don't think that should be the difference when spec'ing a quote as all those brands have their fans and haters alike.  Older Ubiquity switches/routers had some issues with multicast traffic I believe (could have been the Edge series) and needed a lot of tweaking to work properly.  in the grand scheme of things, if your dealer is supporting the network and knows Araknis, its not worth the savings forcing in Unifi.  It will take them more time to learn the UI, and will be harder for them to know about vulnerabilities, updates, etc.  If they have 50 customers on Araknis and 1 on Ubiquiti, you can see how supporting that 1 customer on another platform will cause headaches and more potential service calls to you eating into any profits.

Surveillance - with the C4 app/experience all you can do is view the live feed on the app.  If you need to get historical footage, view clips, etc you do that via the NVR and whatever options it provides (mobile app, web, etc).  No experience with Luma specifically but most cameras are made by Hikvision or Dahau and just get a different label slapped on them.  If configured properly any camera is decent, you aren't recording to watch a movie on a 80'' TV, you just want them to work for security purposes.

Distributed Audio - no experience but I agree, no need to spend on expensive "quality" as overhead speakers are just there for background noise. I'd spend more on critical listening areas

Security - DSC, Honeywell and Elk all make popular security systems that integrate well with Control4.  You can seek out an alarm dealer.  Run whatever they want to install by the dealer you select and its usually a piece of hardware that gets added on for IP control, alarm company sets up everything, then the C4 dealer adds it to the project usually via IP control

Lighting - panelized will cut down on wall acne especially if you use keypads or keypad dimmers.  though not "suggested" I've also stuck some loads into closets within a main room so when you walk into the room you only see a keypad (or keypad dimmer)

locks - yes without cloud/3rd party drivers those are the best options

HVAC - I personally put my c4 t-stats in the basement mechanical room and had small sensors hardwired within each zone to get the local temp.  Ecobee is fine but it is still wall acne at the end of the day and cloud based too.  C4 T-stats with a hardwired sensor is a clean, minimal and not cloud based

Control Rack - all seems standard

Given their prices, hardware, etc are all relatively similar don't forget to ask for 2-3 client references, maybe ask if you can go to the references house to see the work, and overall which dealer gives you better feeling/vibes?  You'll be working with them a lot so personalities meshing go a long way

 

Lastly - do either of the dealerships offer a monthly/yearly service contract?  That may or may not be of interest to you.  this could include updates (to control4, your network equipment, etc), a review of how things are working, checking on internet/wifi speeds 1-2x a year, etc.

[therockhr]

I would make sure you get your garage doors wired in. One of the best integrations. 

[maxspivak]

57 minutes ago, therockhr said:

I would make sure you get your garage doors wired in. One of the best integrations. 

What would you suggest for integration? I plan to go with MyQ garage opener - it has a nice app of its own and integrate with Amazon Key delivery directly into the garage.  

[LollerAgent]

37 minutes ago, maxspivak said:

What would you suggest for integration? I plan to go with MyQ garage opener - it has a nice app of its own and integrate with Amazon Key delivery directly into the garage.  

"Dumb" garage motors.  Run 2x CAT6 from a controller to each door.  One to the motor its self, one to a sensor on the door.  

[South Africa C4 user]

31 minutes ago, LollerAgent said:

"Dumb" garage motors.  Run 2x CAT6 from a controller to each door.  One to the motor its self, one to a sensor on the door.  

This - but I would use 2 sensors on the door (open and closed)

[LollerAgent]

Just now, South Africa C4 user said:

This - but I would use 2 sensors on the door (open and closed)

This can be accomplished with a single physical sensor utilizing a magnet like this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005H3GCW0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

I use these on all of my doors and they work great.

[South Africa C4 user]

3 minutes ago, LollerAgent said:

This can be accomplished with a single physical sensor utilizing a magnet like this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005H3GCW0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

I use these on all of my doors and they work great.

Not sure how this gives you fully open, fully closed and somewhere inbetween?  Which is what 2 sensors gives.  I find that very useful but then I am a bit OCD about knowing what is going on.

Edited April 29, 2022 by South Africa C4 user

[LollerAgent]

10 minutes ago, South Africa C4 user said:

Not sure how this gives you fully open, fully closed and somewhere inbetween?  Which is what 2 sensors gives.  I find that very useful but then I am a bit OCD about knowing what is going on.

It doesn't give you the "level" but it gives you "open" or "closed."  It's "open" if it's not fully closed (half-way open, etc).  That is good enough for me.

[South Africa C4 user]

2 minutes ago, LollerAgent said:

It doesn't give you the "level" but it gives you "open" or "closed."  It's "open" if it's not fully closed (half-way open, etc).  That is good enough for me.

I like the 2 sensor route (probably because the standard garage door driver supports this and gives you 3 different icon states - open, closed and partially open. I have this at one house and the single sensor version at the other house and in reality, I gain nothing from having everything (apart from satisfying my OCD tendencies ).

[eggzlot]

2 hours ago, maxspivak said:

What would you suggest for integration? I plan to go with MyQ garage opener - it has a nice app of its own and integrate with Amazon Key delivery directly into the garage.  

MyQ is not directly supported anymore.  As everyone is saying, a dumb garage is fine and your dealer can wire it to a relay.

If you need to go MyQ you can buy this off the shelf ready made: https://www.garadget.com/product/security-2-0-wireless-3-door-dry-contact-adapter/ and ask your dealer to wire it to a relay.  Depending on the location of your rack, you may be able to wire it directly to your EA controller, or you may need another device

To add - MyQ sensors are cloud based so a small but noticable delay too.  So may as well hard wire sensors to the door too.  Which in all of this really negates the use of MyQ.  And this is coming from someone with MyQ doors...

Edited April 29, 2022 by eggzlot

[zaphod]

Don't Genie garage door openers work directly with C4? Reward a company for being consumer friendly.

[msgreenf]

37 minutes ago, zaphod said:

Don't Genie garage door openers work directly with C4? Reward a company for being consumer friendly.

Yes. 

[cshepard]

Ubiquiti/UniFi is definitely not on a C4 “blacklist”. We have close to 150 Control4 systems running on all-UniFi networking gear (routers, switches, & APs) with zero issues.

Episode Response amps will be fine compared to Triad gear.

[maxspivak]

Would Kwikset or Baldwin locks that are integrated into C4 also work with their separate native mobile apps? That’s sometimes easier to give to a child, relative, guest, etc than the whole C4 app.

How well does it work to have two residences on the same C4 app? Doesn’t it take a while to load the other home, especially on a cellular connection?

[RAV]

There is no native mobile app for the Control4 locks, the zigbee cards are specific for Control4.
But others shouldn't need the app, just their code to enter. (anybody you add to your Control4 account can use the Control4 mobile app).

You have to select settings, than switch to the other house, and it loads in a few seconds to a minute depending on size and complexity.