Savant vs C4

[mujtaba.khokhar]

26 minutes ago, Andrew luecke said:

Pretty much lol. Support load is mostly the same between all the major systems. 

Honestly, all of the major systems are a tradeoff between cost, customisability, flexibility and scalability.

One thing that is true though, is that none of the major systems require installers to constantly run maintenance lol (especially if things are properly set up) but if it's a multi million dollar home, for security reasons and other reasons, it's sometimes a good idea to (at least return and run firmware upgrades, etc)

All about setting expectations from the get go. 

& that's where maintenance and support contracts come into place. 

[Amr]

What about HA pple, we did had some claims HomeAssistant is much better than Control4 a while back, join the crowed please!

[Control4Savant]

17 minutes ago, Amr said:

What about HA pple, we did had some claims HomeAssistant is much better than Control4 a while back, join the crowed please!

More completely useless commentary from you. 

[Control4Savant]

3 hours ago, Cyknight said:

Not at all, we do need to stop being surprised that these sorts of threads are what they are.

Dealers and power users upset about comparisons and criticisms or else they would just move on to another thread. Yes, thats what they always become. 

[Andrew luecke]

23 minutes ago, mujtaba.khokhar said:

All about setting expectations from the get go. 

& that's where maintenance and support contracts come into place. 

Yeah.. Also, we've barely scratching the surface for drivers either. Control4 allows an absolutely insane level of integration (many Home Automation systems for instance would not allow us to develop drivers like Chowmain Light Groups, but they have different advantages). In fact, on my pipeline I've actually got a really cool driver that isn't even launched yet (and I started development 2 years ago), because I haven't had time to finish it.  

That being said, if a manufacturer changes their API, it affects every system. Or, if a new feature is implemented in C4 (like the colorwheel), it requires a visit. Such as Sonos, affected all systems.

This whole discussion also neglects that a lot of the time, a lot of customers who "ask for help", want help setting up brand new ipads and such which they've upgraded, etc

 

[Control4Savant]

If you had to pick, what do you think is Control4s single strongest and more unique system feature? 

[Control4Savant]

3 minutes ago, Andrew luecke said:

Yeah.. Also, we've barely scratching the surface for drivers either. Control4 allows an absolutely insane level of integration (many Home Automation systems for instance would not allow us to develop drivers like Chowmain Light Groups, but they have different advantages). In fact, on my pipeline I've actually got a really cool driver that isn't even launched yet (and I started development 2 years ago), because I haven't had time to finish it.  

That being said, if a manufacturer changes their API, it affects every system. Or, if a new feature is implemented in C4 (like the colorwheel), it requires a visit. Such as Sonos, affected all systems.

This whole discussion also neglects that a lot of the time, a lot of customers who "ask for help", want help setting up brand new ipads and such which they've upgraded, etc

 

For the record… I can literally hard code a new driver on my own for a Savant project as long as I have the API info. 

[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, Control4Savant said:

Dealers and power users upset about comparisons and criticisms or else they would just move on to another thread. Yes, thats what they always become. 

LOL

[SpencerT]

12 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

For the record… I can literally hard code a new driver on my own for a Savant project as long as I have the API info. 

I'm sure your clients must love it when those integrations randomly break. 

[ChzBurger]

3 hours ago, Amr said:

What about HA pple, we did had some claims HomeAssistant is much better than Control4 a while back, join the crowed please!

Home Assistant and Hubitat are probably more capable automation systems than C4 for non-AV devices. Both are pretty reliable as long as you don't apply every upgrade the day it comes out. C4's AV automation and control interfaces/management are better than either. Apple Home is better for control of non-AV devices but its automation capabilities are not very good.

2 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

If you had to pick, what do you think is Control4s single strongest and more unique system feature? 

That's easy. SR-260. Much better keypad design than Halo, almost as good as the Harmony Companion.

[Amr]

6 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

More completely useless commentary from you. 

Five pages of nothing … am sure people realizes who is the useless here, thank u discord for getting me somewhere otherwise I would have died of boredom!

[South Africa C4 user]

5 hours ago, Amr said:

Five pages of nothing … am sure people realizes who is the useless here, thank u discord for getting me somewhere otherwise I would have died of boredom!

That’s not fair… it has been great for popcorn sales all round the world!

[Andrew luecke]

14 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

For the record… I can literally hard code a new driver on my own for a Savant project as long as I have the API info. 

For something comparable to what driver Wizard creates, absolutely (but with the added bonus of basic IP Control too).. 

I'd love to see the XML for something like an Alarm panel given all the bitshifting and such needed though.. Even in Lua, the ELK M1 Panel Driver codebase is 12000 lines of code (excluding Lighting / Lock /History Code).  I would assume you'd need to approach something like that differently if you want 100% integration

 

14 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

If you had to pick, what do you think is Control4s single strongest and more unique system feature? 

The efficiency of setup and the development backend at this time.. If you take a look at our updated Sensibo driver for instance: https://chowmain.software/drivers/control4-sensibo , as per screenshots, some of the new stuff in Control4 is actually still underutilised by everyone, and we're (all) still catching up. There's a thousand projects every developer out there wants to develop if they had time. 

There is so much cool stuff we can do (many "disadvantages" which are cited for Control4 aren't really disadvantages, and could be fulfilled with a driver, such as Chowmain Light groups). If you look at drivers like our Scheduler driver, its actually a totally custom code too (and end users would never even realise)

That doesn't mean Control4 is the best for every project (Crestron, Qsys, ELAN, RTI all have their applications). There were things I found good about all of the professional Home Automation systems I personally tested (especially for AV. they all perform exceptionally well)

They're all evolving, and all have their own niche. But, there is an incredibly amount of flexibility in these systems which people aren't aware about, because developers are still catching up (few lighting drivers have even fully implemented the full OS 3.3 lighting capabilities yet).

 

[RAV]

15 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

If you had to pick, what do you think is Control4s single strongest and more unique system feature? 

SnapOne.

There's money, smart people, designed to be integrated products, manufacturing contacts, distribution, dealer base, exposure, marketing, training, support, peer brands support, and brand pressure to be part of the ecosystem.

Again, not every product is great, but there's a lot to work with there.

[South Africa C4 user]

Yeah, other examples are pool drivers where even the best pool drivers only use 80% or so of the available functionality and most use about 60%. I am only aware of one driver which uses (say) 90% plus of the proxy functionality (and there may be functionality that I am not aware of :-)). 

[ChzBurger]

58 minutes ago, Andrew luecke said:

 

There is so much cool stuff we can do (many "disadvantages" which are cited for Control4 aren't really disadvantages, and could be fulfilled with a driver, such as Chowmain Light groups). If you look at drivers like our Scheduler driver, its actually a totally custom code too (and end users would never even realise)

 

My #1 gripe with C4 as a company is the reliance on 3rd party developers for core functionality. This is not a criticism of 3rd party developers - they're great! The vast majority of lighting control systems in 2023 have some form of groups. Why does C4 rely on a 3rd party for groups? Imagine if Apple or Microsoft didn't incorporate the good ideas of 3rd party developers into their operating systems? Relying on 3rd parties for core functionality is a) risky, b) gives control away, c) shields the company from knowledge of how customers use the system, d) can be frustrating for users - I've paid thousands of dollars for this system and now I need to spend hundreds more for what should be included in the core.

[RAV]

1 hour ago, ChzBurger said:

My #1 gripe with C4 as a company is the reliance on 3rd party developers for core functionality. This is not a criticism of 3rd party developers - they're great! The vast majority of lighting control systems in 2023 have some form of groups. Why does C4 rely on a 3rd party for groups? Imagine if Apple or Microsoft didn't incorporate the good ideas of 3rd party developers into their operating systems? Relying on 3rd parties for core functionality is a) risky, b) gives control away, c) shields the company from knowledge of how customers use the system, d) can be frustrating for users - I've paid thousands of dollars for this system and now I need to spend hundreds more for what should be included in the core.

Included and Free are nice for the budget, but we're much better off with the the current partnerships.

The ability for others to add key function to a system is huge. We're not tied to the corporate development path.
When Extra Vegetables got absorbed, there was a lot less ability to push the envelope, for a time.

The second wave of 3rd Party Developers have enhanced the platform so much, and strengthened it.
They get hired by vendors to develop free drivers, they add other platforms which Control4 would not bother to address (or are competition) and which the vendor wouldn't expense a driver or see the need to. They listen to dealers needs and create enhancements to the programming ability, saving time and adding more abilities quicker than Control4 could react. And Control4 appears to respect the work the developers do by not incorporating their solutions and cutting off their revenue and stifling creativity.

I don't feel Control4 is relying on them, rather sees them for what they are, an asset to work with, which was evident when the color 'module' was added to Control4 and the developers stepped right up for an almost day of update across multiple developers.

 

[C4 User]

1 hour ago, ChzBurger said:

My #1 gripe with C4 as a company is the reliance on 3rd party developers for core functionality. This is not a criticism of 3rd party developers - they're great! The vast majority of lighting control systems in 2023 have some form of groups. Why does C4 rely on a 3rd party for groups? Imagine if Apple or Microsoft didn't incorporate the good ideas of 3rd party developers into their operating systems? Relying on 3rd parties for core functionality is a) risky, b) gives control away, c) shields the company from knowledge of how customers use the system, d) can be frustrating for users - I've paid thousands of dollars for this system and now I need to spend hundreds more for what should be included in the core.

I find that many of the “functional” drivers developed by 3rd parties are not necessarily adding new functionality but making the programming on that functionality much more efficient. So you can pay maybe up to $200 for a driver that can save you multiples of the in time or dealer programming hours, or both. 
 

and I’m very grateful for 3rd party drivers such are the Carrier HVAC driver that allow me to integrate more of my home devices into C4. 
 

this is not a weakness of C4 but a BIG plus IMHO. 

[Murch_DES]

18 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

For the record… I can literally hard code a new driver on my own for a Savant project as long as I have the API info. 

What do you use for your XML editor?  Oxygen is pretty expensive

[Andrew luecke]

On 6/9/2023 at 12:04 AM, ChzBurger said:

My #1 gripe with C4 as a company is the reliance on 3rd party developers for core functionality. This is not a criticism of 3rd party developers - they're great! The vast majority of lighting control systems in 2023 have some form of groups. Why does C4 rely on a 3rd party for groups? Imagine if Apple or Microsoft didn't incorporate the good ideas of 3rd party developers into their operating systems? Relying on 3rd parties for core functionality is a) risky, b) gives control away, c) shields the company from knowledge of how customers use the system, d) can be frustrating for users - I've paid thousands of dollars for this system and now I need to spend hundreds more for what should be included in the core.

C4 actually has a way to handle groups which is similar to how Hue handles them (ours handles them a different way though). Problem with Grouping, is that there is a lot of ambiguity too (such as how to deal with lights with totally different CCT range?) That being said, grouping is supported for dimmable/relay only drivers, which have less ambiguity about handling. That being said, we offer a completely different method which many people prefer) 

Grouping between all of the same brand is easy though. 

 

99% of drivers though are utilising core functionality though, with only minor things which don't (like ELK M1, everything is stock standard, except our History driver, and we've added a similar driver to another panel being released). As you can see though from these photos, modern Control4 actually offers a huge range of flexibility.

    

 

And just one last update on support on our side, again, only 5 support tickets overnight (between all installers we deal with, which is probably most of them). This is between all the major HA products we do, so, it should be clear at this point that the support burden on all of them is fairly low. I think only 1 of the new tickets are driver specific actually (the rest seem like they are initial configuration of devices or network, again, which affect ALL integration platforms, including Savant, or even very high end such as Crestron).  The harsh reality people don't want to hear, is that most persistent issues can be solved by using smart/managed switches, POE, and proper wifi AP's. In spite of using those though, you can't avoid interference either (only manage it), so people living in dense environments will never achieve perfect wifi if there is too much interference (the better the AP's though, the more chance of cutting the interference). Managed gear also enables network visibility and provides the ability to identify and troubleshoot issues.  

None of the major installer automation systems are really that bad honestly (even my experience as an installer). They all have survived this long because they all have something to offer 

 

[penn65000]

On 6/7/2023 at 4:49 PM, msgreenf said:

I literally have posts where you say your network's down and you can't get to the internet. That's not a control for issue

Still waiting on you to present proof of this statement (that you made up). Where are those posts? As C4 refunds all my neeos….

[msgreenf]

3 minutes ago, penn65000 said:

Still waiting on you to present proof of this statement (that you made up). Where are those posts? As C4 refunds all my neeos….

Dude I owe you nothing. You sent me in circles. Wasted my time and never followed up. There may be a disconnect in communication which is something I can't work with. We talked on the phone, texted and you went silent... 

[msgreenf]

I also don't speak for c4. But you told me when your network went down nothing worked. To mean that means your Network is done. Maybe I read the word Ms "nothing worked" too literally 

[penn65000]

2 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

Dude I owe you nothing. You sent me in circles. Wasted my time and never followed up. There may be a disconnect in communication which is something I can't work with. We talked on the phone, texted and you went silent... 

talking on the phone? You’ve got to be kidding. We’ve never spoken. You’re either thinking of someone else or certifiable. 

[penn65000]

1 minute ago, msgreenf said:

I also don't speak for c4. But you told me when your network went down nothing worked. To mean that means your Network is done. Maybe I read the word Ms "nothing worked" too literally 

??? My network never went down. No idea what you’re taking about.