Savant vs C4

[penn65000]

Could someone provide fresh savant cs C4 comparison? Thinking of switching two homes from C4 to Savant due to: 

1) Neeo debacle (ongoing for us)

2) T4 touchscreen issues (bad screens)

3) Core 1 bugs
4) C4 lighting in one home is unreliable (both are zigbee not panelized). All latest gen but in one home multibutton keypads unreliable. c4 rep been to home and never solved. 
5) SnapOne corporate lousy. Doesn’t respond to C4 complaints. Not sure if better w savant. But their indifference is a huge issue. 

[msgreenf]

Why do you have 2 different accounts you post under. I think I need to merge these into 1... 

[penn65000]

52 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

Why do you have 2 different accounts you post under. I think I need to merge these into 1... 

why don’t you start another thread for that?

[Cyknight]

1 minute ago, penn65000 said:

why don’t you start another thread for that?

Yawn

[msgreenf]

55 minutes ago, penn65000 said:

why don’t you start another thread for that?

Ok. So now for sure your 2 identities will be merged tomorrow. 

[msgreenf]

Accounts merged 

[penn65000]

1 hour ago, Cyknight said:

Yawn

That’s clever. How about addressing the question?

[penn65000]

Insecure dealers afraid to respond. 

[RyanE]

20 minutes ago, penn65000 said:

Insecure dealers afraid to respond. 

I doubt this is the issue.

Most on here are not dealers, and those that are, very possibly are not also Savant dealers.

RyanE

[South Africa C4 user]

1. Neeo was a bit of a stuff up but I still like mine. Will ultimately upgrade to Halo Touch,

2. yes there was a bad batch but I understand C4 replaced these no issue.

3. what bugs? Update to latest OS!

4. I don’t believe this for 1 second.  C4 lighting is extremely reliable and one of their best features.

5. Really?

What a pointless thread. If you want to change to Savant go for it.  I am sure they have their strengths and weaknesses.  So does C4.  Personally I will stick with C4.

[Amr]

To be fair, am sure “Savant” Forums will be much helpful for you than here, you will get boooed and attacked more than getting any meaningful answers!

BTW am having C4 since 2016, don’t have what you are complaining from, everything have a reason and without knowing your root issues, nothing will be fixed, savant or others won’t be the fix!

[Control4Savant]

Im here

Quick answers…

Savant does not use ZB or Zwave lighting nativity. They use Wifi for most devices which is much easier to troubleshoot, scale and expand. The best case to swap lighting is to change to Lutron lighting to become supported but agnostic of any larger control system in the future. Another option is to keep your C4 lighting and use a Lutron Hub and shell keypads as a bridge (more on that can be explained later). 

Savant touch screens are equally worthless (I dont support proprietary screens) but no real issues with functionality. The app is spot on and uniform. We finally have  room to room intercom between screens which is an advantage C4 has always had (when it works). Savant has reliable and consistent single app doorbell/intercom use with 2N, Ring and Doorbird. The App is user specific, local or cloud based, and runs circles around the Control4 UI. 

Savant has X2 wifi touch screen remotes and Button only AA battery remotes with an RF Hub. The work consistently and reliably but dont have the most epic battery life. Siri  and IP integration is and has been reliable. 

Savant processors start with a basic Linux unit thats standalone or built into a soundbar or amp. They also have M processor Mac Minis and Mac Pros for medium and larger systems.

As of the past few years I no longer spec new projects with Control4 only keeping up with service and minor updates. All systems needing major updates and all new systems are Savant. They above all else work reliably and consistently on the basic level you expect like a functional single app or 3rd party integration. They provide solutions and tech that Control4 is typically years behind on. They integrate reliably with Sonos, Ring, Nest, Apple and Amazone music etc.  They own GE lighting and Racepoint (Savant) Energy to come up with new and cutting edge power management and storage. As an ultra lux system Control4 cant compare and as a lux container for 3rd party integration its just better. 

Savant company end user approach is no different than Snap. Snap corp. has a standard unlike most in the industry and while i’m not crazy about what some of the product lines have become you will likely not likely receive more “care” with a Savant system. They dont care more about what I have to say as a dealer and pro any more than Snap. They are dealer based and as such this is ultimately what causes a positive or negative, well done or over budgeted project for a client. I think it’s fair to say that with Control4 popularity comes the risk of having lesser qualified installer show up at the door. Also, programming in Composer is pretty much plug and play compared to the setup in Savant, making it easier IMO to fake the experience level what you are really capable of. The complexity of Blueprint makes it difficult to fake but also more advanced in capability. 

Maybe some more direct questions would be helpful. Iv been a Control4 dealer for 17 years and a Savant dealer for 12 so I can pretty much dissect them however you wish. 

[Control4Savant]

29 minutes ago, Amr said:

To be fair, am sure “Savant” Forums will be much helpful for you than here, you will get boooed and attacked more than getting any meaningful answers!

BTW am having C4 since 2016, don’t have what you are complaining from, everything have a reason and without knowing your root issues, nothing will be fixed, savant or others won’t be the fix!

To be fair you will likely just get the reversal as you would here. There is also not a Savant forum really in existence like this one. There are a few FB and Reddit groups. AVS.com is a disaster of uneducated opinions. I have actually thought about starting my own automation forum to have a dynamic about all systems, pro and community based.

[penn65000]

5 hours ago, South Africa C4 user said:

1. Neeo was a bit of a stuff up but I still like mine. Will ultimately upgrade to Halo Touch,

2. yes there was a bad batch but I understand C4 replaced these no issue.

3. what bugs? Update to latest OS!

4. I don’t believe this for 1 second.  C4 lighting is extremely reliable and one of their best features.

5. Really?

What a pointless thread. If you want to change to Savant go for it.  I am sure they have their strengths and weaknesses.  So does C4.  Personally I will stick with C4.

1. Neeo is a mess in many ways. 
2. we waited til after the bad batch. This is another bad batch 

3. I am on latest OS. Lots of bugs to point they had to power cycle our Core1 each night

4. you don’t believe this? Why would I lie? Diamond dealer and C4 involved and still doesn’t work

5.  Yes no response from corporate  amateur hour there  

[msgreenf]

3. I really don't understand at all.  I have dozens of clients and don't have these issues.  Many projects running EA3,5,1 and core 1,3,5.  Can you share any details of what you are seeing?

4. I tend to agree on lighting.  I don't think you are lieing but this is not something I have seen.  Again many projects and don't have these issues at all.

5. I have seen great support Control4/SnapAV so i'm suprised that you are seeing this.  

[eggzlot]

6 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

To be fair you will likely just get the reversal as you would here. There is also not a Savant forum really in existence like this one. There are a few FB and Reddit groups. AVS.com is a disaster of uneducated opinions. I have actually thought about starting my own automation forum to have a dynamic about all systems, pro and community based.

I think lack of a Savant dedicated forum is a lack of something similar to Composer Home Edition?

could be wrong but don’t think Savant offers a tool like that and I have to think 10+ years ago that software drove a helpful group of people to start a forum

and I agree on the shortcomings on AVS.  If it’s not homeseer or allonis it’s just over priced crap.  That said it’s a heavy tinkering/diy crowd 

[eggzlot]

13 hours ago, penn65000 said:

Could someone provide fresh savant cs C4 comparison? Thinking of switching two homes from C4 to Savant due to: 

1) Neeo debacle (ongoing for us)

2) T4 touchscreen issues (bad screens)

3) Core 1 bugs
4) C4 lighting in one home is unreliable (both are zigbee not panelized). All latest gen but in one home multibutton keypads unreliable. c4 rep been to home and never solved. 
5) SnapOne corporate lousy. Doesn’t respond to C4 complaints. Not sure if better w savant. But their indifference is a huge issue. 

I think the dealer makes a huge difference 

I met someone recently with 2 homes, one with Savant and one with c4.  The Savant app appearance was a tick better I won’t disagree.  But his Savant install was bad because he kept showing me other apps for that home whereas his c4 home had 1 app.  Oddly he loved both.  I still scratch my head over that chat but different strokes for different folks 

[Cyknight]

10 hours ago, penn65000 said:

Insecure dealers afraid to respond. 

Nah, just tired ones.

 

[Control4Savant]

3 hours ago, eggzlot said:

I think lack of a Savant dedicated forum is a lack of something similar to Composer Home Edition?

could be wrong but don’t think Savant offers a tool like that and I have to think 10+ years ago that software drove a helpful group of people to start a forum

and I agree on the shortcomings on AVS.  If it’s not homeseer or allonis it’s just over priced crap.  That said it’s a heavy tinkering/diy crowd 

I do think that a user support forum is a nice thing but other social media sources still do more than enough for more users. On average most people are not looking to change much with a system on a regular basis as long as it works as intended. The Savant app allows for user administration and most of the custom actions, complete system scenes or keypad programming people want to achieve in HE. It’s never been a “tool” that most Control4 users care about. 

If a dealer sucks, your install will suck. Irrelevant to brand.

If a dealer is about profit and brand only, you will have products and solutions under constant service/update. 

There are Savant products and solutions I dont offer. They are either IMO not vetted well enough, significantly over priced for a solution equally as good  or simply not worth it unless its issues are specifically planned out by me. I think I said before but  as a base for all my non 1% jobs, I try to use Savant as a lux UI container for agnostic solutions example being Lutron comfort, Sonos music, Roku and Apple streamers, Ring doorbells, Yale locks etc which makes support and service simple. Add some proprietary remotes, keypads and inexpensive wireless IO for control and you have a very solid system. 

Control4 being “live edit” quick service can be easier without impacting the site. Savant has the opposite advantage, easier to preprogram and load onsite. 

Generally speaking i dont have many complaints about ZB mesh on average. Because of the volume of jobs iv done I have had my fair share of really poor performing ZB mesh on  large sites with 100+ nodes I think there is a clear advantage using IP and WIFI. This is also something that can be 100% managed by an end user with proper networking knowledge. 

Savants BT bulbs and color strips are great in small groups but BT has limits of its own. The quality of their lighting dimmers,keypads etc are WAY better than C4 but 1st time implementation is unnecessarily complicated and stupid.

Savant has 3 brands with video doorbells 100% integrated and consistent inside the Savant app. (this is one of my major issues with C4 over the past many years.)

Savant is fInally getting Amazon and Apple Music that’s been a constant request for years.

Basic Control4 CPUs are great, large controllers not so much. As an Apple guy, the thought of putting a large smart home on anything but an M processor seems silly at this point. I think even my latest systems barely use any computing. 

To me, Control4 has an opportunity to become a premium DYI system.  Savant is going in the opposite direction focusing on either super high/cutting end solutions or integration with consumer level products like Ring. 

Control4 users are now being offered color control lighting, touch remotes and single app UI refreshments. MoiP is trash. Snap offers Access Networks as a premium enterprise data option. 

Savant users are now being offered smart electrical breakers, power management and storage. Savant works natively with Netgear 10G AV and Juniper AI systems.  

Please try to read my Savant posts without bias. I championed C4 for most of my professional tenure which is why im on here and really the company out of the two that I have a real feelings toward. Years ago Savant was just our commercial system option but It’s more consistent for myself and clients. The costs are the same. The processors are more advanced.  Major 3rd party integration are better supported. New utility technology’s are better supported. The app looks better. The app are user based. The system scenes are user based. App system, zone and features access are user based. I use Savant because it’s a better solution.

 

 

 

[RAV]

21 minutes ago, Control4Savant said:

If a dealer sucks, your install will suck. Irrelevant to brand.

If a dealer is about profit and brand only, you will have products and solutions under constant service/update. 

There are Savant products and solutions I dont offer. They are either IMO not vetted well enough, significantly over priced for a solution equally as good  or simply not worth it unless its issues are specifically planned out by me.

This right here. Same for both brands, and most all brands.

Lesson #1 Don't be an early adopter.
Lesson #2 Covid reinforces lesson #1.
Lesson #3 Don't reinvent the wheel, learn the ins and outs what works and doesn't and focus on that.

Just like restaurants, each has their own great dish, but not everything each offers is great.

[Control4Savant]

Just now, RAV said:

Just like restaurants, each has their own great dish, but not everything each offers is great.

Well no, this is why I bothered to explain the differences and I dont know I follow your analogy.

[lippavisual]

A lot of butchering of the English language going on here.

[ChzBurger]

2 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

II think I said before but  as a base for all my non 1% jobs, I try to use Savant as a lux UI container for agnostic solutions example being Lutron comfort, Sonos music, Roku and Apple streamers, Ring doorbells, Yale locks etc which makes support and service simple. Add some proprietary remotes, keypads and inexpensive wireless IO for control and you have a very solid system. 

I think that is absolutely the right way to go these days. I inherited my C4 system and replaced C4 lighting with RadioRA 2. I've still got some C4 audio, but Sonos just blows it away from a user and Apple Music perspective. C4 SR-260 is the best remote for anyone with cable, better than the new Halo with keys. Having said all that, other than the TV stuff, using Apple Home is a better experience than the C4 app for control

2 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

To me, Control4 has an opportunity to become a premium DYI system.  Savant is going in the opposite direction focusing on either super high/cutting end solutions or integration with consumer level products like Ring. 

That's not a bad idea. And probably what they should do with the new Core Lite+ Halo bundle. Some issues: 1) C4 OS 3 is a functional legacy system in the stereotypical bad ways. There's lots of chewing gum and baling wire. Which makes the system tricky to learn and easy to mess up, 2) there are too many paid 3rd party integrations and functionality. Having some is absolutely great, but there are several that really should be built into the system in 2023, 3) proprietary Zigbee is a significant issue limiting device choice. Finally, if one looks at the better existing DIY systems they mostly surpass C4 from a non-AV automation (not control) ability.

[penn65000]

3 minutes ago, ChzBurger said:

I think that is absolutely the right way to go these days. I inherited my C4 system and replaced C4 lighting with RadioRA 2. I've still got some C4 audio, but Sonos just blows it away from a user and Apple Music perspective. C4 SR-260 is the best remote for anyone with cable, better than the new Halo with keys. Having said all that, other than the TV stuff, using Apple Home is a better experience than the C4 app for control

That's not a bad idea. And probably what they should do with the new Core Lite+ Halo bundle. Some issues: 1) C4 OS 3 is a functional legacy system in the stereotypical bad ways. There's lots of chewing gum and baling wire. Which makes the system tricky to learn and easy to mess up, 2) there are too many paid 3rd party integrations and functionality. Having some is absolutely great, but there are several that really should be built into the system in 2023, 3) proprietary Zigbee is a significant issue limiting device choice. Finally, if one looks at the better existing DIY systems they mostly surpass C4 from a non-AV automation (not control) ability.

I go with only C4 drivers as I think third party will ultimately disappoint. Thx for your thoughts. They are helpful.  Will ultimate switch to Lutron lighting which works w c4 and savant. 

[eggzlot]

2 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

I do think that a user support forum is a nice thing but other social media sources still do more than enough for more users. On average most people are not looking to change much with a system on a regular basis as long as it works as intended. The Savant app allows for user administration and most of the custom actions, complete system scenes or keypad programming people want to achieve in HE. It’s never been a “tool” that most Control4 users care about. 

 

Not disagreeing but every 1-2 months the conversation pops up here why cant Composer Pro be available and why do I have to call my dealer to add that new device I got for my birthday/holiday gift, etc.  

So at last offering HE is a good step.  And I think most users may not even know HE is available as its not really highly publicized and lots of dealers (from reading and talking to people) seem to not advertise it either.