Right to Repair

[adelatorre]

Is anybody living in a state which has passed this?  If so has this opened the door to getting a copy of composer pro?

[SMHarman]

Why would it. That's software not broken hardware. 

 

C4 does not lock hardware components in a device together. 

[-defunct-]

Right to repair only means that independent businesses can have access. Restricting access based on having a certified business is not the complaint of right to repair.

 

The dealer model would suffice while still preventing access to literally anybody.

[gogogadget]

Mmm. Good topic. So, lets say i need to replace my steering pump on my combine and need to have it programmed in so the main computer sees it and allows it to be used. Right now I need a dealer and right to repair is trying to change that.

 

Soo... if I need to replace a switch to get my control4 system working again. Then I should be able to add it, to get it working again.

But I dont have a problem buying any of the products from a dealer, which shouldnt effect their model.

[-defunct-]

*If* the law does not allow for exceptions, covers configuration software, and requires access given to consumers and not just B2B.

Typically it means individual hardware components on a single device, not the communication between a network of integrated devices.

[Jfizzle]

No it’s not going to entitle you to obtain manufacturer software. The state laws are probably preempted by the federal DMCA for stuff we care about in this forum. FTC is looking at right to repair now in this sense. When it goes through at federal level it probably does so in the form of an exemption under the DMCA from liability for circumventing access controls or using a third party software to, for instance, get into c4 or John Deere software. And exempt people from reverse engineering it to be able to make their own type or compose pro. And probably prohibit c4 and others from locking stuff down in certain ways. 
 

I can’t imagine anything compelling manufacturers to give out software or turn over source code or things like that. 

[mujtaba.khokhar]

Sorry but Control4 isn’t a DIY platform. If you believe it is then go else where. Right to repair doesn’t make sense tbh. 
 

What some of you also have to remember is our livelyhood relies on us selling and programming control4, not for a bunch of morons to think they know what they are doing and feel entitled to software they think they should have. 
 

if you want the software, open a c4 dealership. 
 

rant over, goodbye. 
 

Muj 

[wnpublic]

Tesla-level corporate worship.   And I believe this is called saying the quiet part out loud:

18 hours ago, mujtaba.khokhar said:

What some of you also have to remember is our livelyhood relies on us selling and programming control4, not for a bunch of morons to think they know what they are doing and feel entitled to software they think they should have.

[videostorm]

Another angle that is interesting here is if this applies as a "right to update" hardware you have purchased.....

This is very real problem that was recently highlighted by the expiration of the Let's Encrypt root certs.  There are a lot of consumer AV and IOT devices that now can't access about a quarter of the internet until their manufacturers get around to updating them.  IF they ever do......      If not, well now your hardware is effectively broken.   Don't you have the right to fix it?  But you can't, since these are system security issues and protected from any attempts to modify by DMCA.

So it seems the law needs to change.  Either allow more consumer control, or require prompt free updates from the manufacturer for X years (5, 10, ... ??).

Or we can stop selling hardware and make everything a subscription model, thus avoiding the issue of "ownership" of devices...

[-defunct-]

You have a point on a requirement for a manufacturer to guarantee security updates.

The recent legislation in that regard is pushing manufacturers to implement autoupdate so consumers and installers do not have to manually update.

The security legislation passing for IoT globally is going the opposite direction of Right to Repair as well.

[Gary Leeds UK]

Looking at the UK and EU Law - Sorry no - 

 

"In the first instance, the rules will only apply to companies producing dishwashers, washing machines, washer-dryers, dryers, fridges, freezers, televisions and “other electronic displays” for home use. Laptops, tablets and smartphones are notably excluded from this latter category.

For appliances used by businesses, the rules also cover electric motors, vending machines, retail fridges and freezers, power transformers, welding equipment and light sources. Further products may be added to the requirements in the coming years.

Products do not need to be under warranty for customers to access spare parts and repair information. However, in some cases, parts will only be made available to tradespeople who are qualified to give repair services, for health and safety reasons."

[Neo1738]

1 hour ago, Gary Leeds UK said:

Looking at the UK and EU Law - Sorry no - 

 

"In the first instance, the rules will only apply to companies producing dishwashers, washing machines, washer-dryers, dryers, fridges, freezers, televisions and “other electronic displays” for home use. Laptops, tablets and smartphones are notably excluded from this latter category.

For appliances used by businesses, the rules also cover electric motors, vending machines, retail fridges and freezers, power transformers, welding equipment and light sources. Further products may be added to the requirements in the coming years.

Products do not need to be under warranty for customers to access spare parts and repair information. However, in some cases, parts will only be made available to tradespeople who are qualified to give repair services, for health and safety reasons."

In the US there is a big push for right to repair including those specifically excluded in the UK/EU. Cell phones, laptops, computer equipment, tractors (electronic components especially) etc. Manufactures have long held that giving parts and schematics can lead to reverse manufacturing of their goods and loss of intellectual property. Counter is that if we own our product we should own the product and have a right to repair it. You get the idea. 

[RAV]

Right to repair is targeted at the item level, not integration level.

A tractor is one line item on an invoice, you should have a right to repair that item without undue restrictions.
Composer creates a system out of components, not the same thing at all. And Composer is used by a free market, corporate isn't dictating how much to charge, or charging their dealer network for access which would restrict access and create costs to be recouped.

As to the security updates, what is a reasonable time frame, based on the speed of changes over the last 10 years? Viable discussion point. How long should manufactures maintain the viability of hardware reliant on the software it's operating on? It's not built in obsolescence. A third party certificate broke. Not like the manufacturers control the Internet or the services run through it. Lots of grey area and who's fault, and liability, and good faith, and all that. It's also become a selling point, better to use a Roku or the like for least issues long term. Until they muck it up.

[-defunct-]

For security updates, a reasonable minimum is 5 years after last device of that model is sold.

As it is, I wouldn't trust an IoT device if it had not had an update in the prior six months. With as fast as vulnerabilities are being found, it is good to know that a device is still prioritized with the company.

[therockhr]

17 hours ago, mujtaba.khokhar said:

Sorry but Control4 isn’t a DIY platform. If you believe it is then go else where. Right to repair doesn’t make sense tbh. 
 

What some of you also have to remember is our livelyhood relies on us selling and programming control4, not for a bunch of morons to think they know what they are doing and feel entitled to software they think they should have. 
 

if you want the software, open a c4 dealership. 
 

rant over, goodbye. 
 

Muj 

You aren't splitting atoms here dude. You are programming a home control system and I use "programming" in the loosest sense as you are really just configuring a system with a GUI.

[eggzlot]

10 minutes ago, therockhr said:

You aren't splitting atoms here dude. You are programming a home control system and I use "programming" in the loosest sense as you are really just configuring a system with a GUI.

agreed

I mean I am ok with the dealer model - I knew it coming in and made my decision and do not regret it.  But after being involved with c4 for the last 8 years, I can clearly say there are moron integrators too  Not Muj directly but just in general there are enough horror stories to know there are bad end users and bad integrators.  That is getting a bit off topic but...

[videostorm]

33 minutes ago, RAV said:

A third party certificate broke. Not like the manufacturers control the Internet or the services run through it. Lots of grey area and who's fault, and liability, and good faith, and all that. It's also become a selling point, better to use a Roku or the like for least issues long term. Until they muck it up.

In this particular case, the certificate expired.  Most certificates expire.  This is a security feature meant to prevent a compromised certificate from lasting forever. 

The thing is, everyone KNOWS WHEN the certificates will expire.  It is a planned event.  You just need to update BEFORE it happens.  Or at least promptly after when you realize your mistake.

No grey area here.  Just manufacturers being lazy, or probably just not devoting much effort to support products they already sold.

[RAV]

1 hour ago, videostorm said:

Just manufacturers being lazy, or probably just not devoting much effort to support products they already sold.

I concur.

And it's part of a larger issue. Lots of examples of pyramid schemes in this industry. Where the new buyer is paying to support services of older owners.
Yet Apple, and Control4, and others, are harassed as being over priced.
You either pay for services in higher product cost, or pay recurring fees, or pay with your data, or get left with a unit that no longer functions from a software dated issue.

And we're a disposable society, so manufacturers are happy to take advantage, build junk and sell it to you repeatedly.

(Off topic, saw an article recently for a smart COVID test. They built a one use, it shuts down after, bluetooth board with an optical sensor to read a dye line like a pregnancy test. Killing us)
 

[therockhr]

2 hours ago, eggzlot said:

agreed

I mean I am ok with the dealer model - I knew it coming in and made my decision and do not regret it.  But after being involved with c4 for the last 8 years, I can clearly say there are moron integrators too  Not Muj directly but just in general there are enough horror stories to know there are bad end users and bad integrators.  That is getting a bit off topic but...

yeah. i may do a thread on it someday but my feelings have changed slightly over the years. I have never thought it should be marketed as a DIY system but i thought there should an official way for an owner to get Pro. I have pretty much changed to wishing the option was the dealer could say "hey end user, whatever you do, dont go to this URL and get Composer Pro *wink wink*. If you do though I will not be responsible." and it pro just worked and that is that. But whatever. Im at the point where as long as I some kind of access to it I dont care about anyone else. not a battle even worth trying and honestly even lots of really smart and capable end users will not take the time to study what they need to do to make a home system do what they want.

[eggzlot]

28 minutes ago, therockhr said:

yeah. i may do a thread on it someday but my feelings have changed slightly over the years. I have never thought it should be marketed as a DIY system but i thought there should an official way for an owner to get Pro. I have pretty much changed to wishing the option was the dealer could say "hey end user, whatever you do, dont go to this URL and get Composer Pro *wink wink*. If you do though I will not be responsible." and it pro just worked and that is that. But whatever. Im at the point where as long as I some kind of access to it I dont care about anyone else. not a battle even worth trying and honestly even lots of really smart and capable end users will not take the time to study what they need to do to make a home system do what they want.

yeah certainly steering off topic but it comes down to support

1) Dealers dont make a ton of support, they make money selling hardware

2) it would cost Control4 a ton of money to hire more support

so if someone takes Composer Pro and messes it up, who is going to fix it?  you can say you'll have to pay a yearly fee to use Pro but is that enough for c4 to staff a 24x7 help desk?  You can say buyer/user beware if you use Pro but it comes down to public perception, people complaining on forums (here, reddit, AVS, etc).  So they are trying to protect their brand value for what its worth. 

[Cyknight]

7 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

1) Dealers dont make a ton of support, they make money selling hardware

We don't? We do? Dealer makes money on paid time - hardware sales ... well they add a bit.

Of course, time spent fixing you OWN created issues is money lost. Unfortunately there are those that choose to not spend that time ... instead of not creating the issues to begin with.

[eggzlot]

2 hours ago, Cyknight said:

We don't? We do? Dealer makes money on paid time - hardware sales ... well they add a bit.

Of course, time spent fixing you OWN created issues is money lost. Unfortunately there are those that choose to not spend that time ... instead of not creating the issues to begin with.

most dealers I've spoken to make their money off new installs or large upgrades which include programming and hardware.  I don't know many dealers who make a living off going to someone's place to update some firmware on hardware and reprogram 4 buttons on a keypad.  its part of the job - but that is why they try to sell service contracts so they can make money off it vs just charging hourly to do those types of jobs.  you of course are usually different, I am just speaking about some dealers I've talked to on here and the 3 larger local c4 outfits in my area.

[Cyknight]

19 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

include programming and hardware

include programming will be the big one here in my mind

20 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

that is why they try to sell service contracts so they can make money off it vs just charging hourly to do those types of jobs

I think it makes to sell service contracts to create a steady income, and to not create a nickel and dime feel with people every time you go over - depending on the user, it may or may not be cheaper in the end, but it takes away the 'every time they come over' feeling. But the downside is that if you DON'T react timely to every issue, people will quickly feel cheated anyway (why did I pay for this contract). It's a bit of a double edged sword in that sense.

The issue often becomes where does a system's setup stop, and where does it becomes above and beyond the original scope. With a service contract, you take away that question.

 

Differently put, the idea that (paid) service visit (be it contract based or hourly based) doesn't 'make money' is non-sense. Hardware sales in electronics will NOT keep a C4 dealer going, there's simply not that much margin on the pieces to then cover any and all overhead cost (sales guys salary, maybe bonuses, office personnel, building lease, cost of investment in buying the equipment prior to being paid for it, tools, consumables) and make a good profit on top of that.

I certainly see where the illusion is created for both dealers and end-users that hardware sales bring in the money (the monetary numbers on a brand new extensive setup look nice - or not so nice based on perspective), but I believe many of those dealers aren't actually looking at their relative margins properly.

If anyone is best served by hardware sales, it would be the hardware suppliers(distributors)/manufacturers

Note that I can see where the 'out of his garage' dealer may be able to make a living 'just selling' new equipment as a one-person (or maybe an assistant) show, but if you try and scale that to a multi-employee business, just don't see where you'd manage it.

Just my perspective, which may well be skewed - I'd have to say I have no idea how the scale of Control4 dealers (or other similar systems) is divided, how many are tiny (ie 2 people), small (under a dozen) and so on is.

If the number of small dealers is a lot more than those of medium and up, and they account for more than half of the systems out there, then my perspective is certainly going to be off-kilter. It may well be.

 

[mujtaba.khokhar]

On 10/17/2021 at 10:12 PM, wnpublic said:

Tesla-level corporate worship.   And I believe this is called saying the quiet part out loud:

I don't work for C4 lol im just stating from a UK perspective ofc things in the states are and will be different.

23 hours ago, eggzlot said:

agreed

I mean I am ok with the dealer model - I knew it coming in and made my decision and do not regret it.  But after being involved with c4 for the last 8 years, I can clearly say there are moron integrators too  Not Muj directly but just in general there are enough horror stories to know there are bad end users and bad integrators.  That is getting a bit off topic but...

ive seen the horror stories and ive fixed the horror stories and i know how hard it must be to trust someone else, its why i tell my clients do your research and don't always go for the most expensive or the cheapest. One thing that always helps is ask your potential installer to see projects of a similar caliber to yours and if they cant then its a no. 

23 hours ago, therockhr said:

You aren't splitting atoms here dude. You are programming a home control system and I use "programming" in the loosest sense as you are really just configuring a system with a GUI.

The only thing splitting is my head being up all night programming crestron and prepping for projects. But no one wants to talk about that LOL

I for one support all my projects, heck i still have systems on 2.5.3 and theres no real need to upgrade them client is happy how it works and just needs regular maintenance. I have keypads and Touch screens ive taken out of upgrades spare for her. So, i do the best i can where i can, within reason. Even disposing broken hardware, its done the way it should be rather than tossing it. 

17 hours ago, Cyknight said:

Differently put, the idea that (paid) service visit (be it contract based or hourly based) doesn't 'make money' is non-sense. Hardware sales in electronics will NOT keep a C4 dealer going, there's simply not that much margin on the pieces to then cover any and all overhead cost (sales guys salary, maybe bonuses, office personnel, building lease, cost of investment in buying the equipment prior to being paid for it, tools, consumables) and make a good profit on top of that.

I certainly see where the illusion is created for both dealers and end-users that hardware sales bring in the money (the monetary numbers on a brand new extensive setup look nice - or not so nice based on perspective), but I believe many of those dealers aren't actually looking at their relative margins properly.

Harware sales brings in nothing, its all about customer support and keeping your systems in tip top condition.

Every project has a handover and once this handover is completed, and document signed by customer any further work is then either paid for hourly or paid from the service contract, if work exceeds service contract hours then there is a charge. 

Aslo, sorry if i offended anyone you're not morons. i was just giving my perspective at the end of the day I run a Home Automation company, if laws came in to prevent me from stopping doing my job id be screwed.

Thanks 

Muj

[wnpublic]

7 hours ago, mujtaba.khokhar said:

I don't work for C4 lol

That's what you drew from this? SMH.  Yet end users are morons....